Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume. Well, it's appropriate that we talk about a $600 toilet seat because, indeed, this bill smells to high heaven. The truth of the matter is you…
Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Well, it's appropriate that we talk about a $600 toilet seat because, indeed, this bill smells to high heaven.
The truth of the matter is you will hear a lot of wild claims made on the House floor today, but in truth the Joint Taxation Committee, Congressional Budget Office, and every other independent agency has testified that passing this bill will cost the American taxpayers more than $1 billion. It is a testament that this program is working and will continue to work to save dollars for the American taxpayer by going after those who owe their taxes on behalf of those of us who pay our taxes.
Mr. Speaker, I rise today in strong opposition to H.R. 3056. This bill would eliminate a program that is actually making money for the government: overdue tax bills collected by qualified private companies from people that owe too little for the IRS to use up valuable resources in going after them. To date, the IRS has turned over 90,000 cases worth nearly half a billion dollars. And the dollars add up to the tune of $32 million collected since last month, and there's more to come. As I said, more than $1 billion over the next decade.
This is money that is helping to close the tax gap and is revenue that the Treasury Department can use to hire more employees. Under the program the IRS can retain up to a quarter of the collection to hire additional enforcement workers, and already some $5.7 million has been designated by the IRS for collection activities and $20 million has gone toward deficit reduction. So it is helping reduce the Federal deficit.
Some argue that collection agents have harassed taxpayers. The reality is that these agents are held to the same standards as IRS employees when it comes to protecting taxpayer rights. As a matter of fact, out of 51,000 cases, it was testified at our recent Ways and Means Committee hearing there were no, zero, violations of taxpayer privacy, zero.
These companies do face difficulties in finding the correct person, as the IRS does not provide the collectors with the taxpayers' last known phone numbers. This might be an area to look for reforming, rather than killing, this important program.
Some argue that the IRS could collect the same debts more cheaply if they could hire more employees. But the truth of the matter is these taxpayers have already been contacted four times by the IRS and they have not had luck in collecting them.
A GAO report in 2004, General Accountability Office, says that these private companies can recover $4.60 for every $1 spent while additional IRS employees would recover less, would be less efficient in recovering.
The bottom line is that the program is working, taxpayer rights and privacy are being protected. The program allows IRS to do what they are good at: enforcement of higher profile debts while allowing private collection agents who have to be qualified to collect smaller debts owed by tens of thousands of taxpayers.
And private debt collectors aren't a novel idea. Other Federal agencies and many States, 40 States, and thousands of local government agencies use private agents to collect everything from overdue income taxes, alcohol and cigarette taxes, to local property taxes. It's working, and it would be a disservice to taxpayers who actually pay their taxes on time to discontinue it now.
The bottom line truly, Mr. Speaker, is are we serious about closing the tax gap. Are we serious about collecting the debts that are owed? People here tend to always see things in black and white, and you will hear this in the debate today. You are either for or against the IRS, for or against private debt collectors.
The truth of the matter is our goal is to collect the taxes the most efficient way. It will take a partnership of our IRS employees, who do an excellent job, and private debt collectors, who do an excellent job in the tougher debts, to collect in order for the taxpayers to truly get the dollars that they are owed and this country the dollars that are truly owed.
Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. Speaker, I would point out that the General Accountability Office has testified that, in fact, private debt collectors are more efficient per dollars than the IRS employees with these types of debts, which is what we are comparing. And, again, we have IRS employees with the ability to levy liens and fines, they are able to compel certain types of taxpayers to pay efficiently, and they can go after the larger, more complex cases very well. It is this group here that we've had difficulty collecting taxes from in the past that these proven tax collectors across 40 States have done such a good job collecting. And that is the bottom line; are we going to collect the taxes of the American people or not?
With that, I would yield 2 minutes to the ranking member of the Trade Subcommittee, the gentleman from California (Mr. Herger), who has worked very hard on behalf of American taxpayers.
Mr. Speaker, I would point out that this practice has already generated nearly $6 million for additional IRS agents in collection activities at the agency.
At this time, I would like to yield 3 minutes to the gentleman from Florida (Mr. Boyd).
Mr. Speaker, I would point out that at the Ways and Means hearings, the Government Accountability Office testified they had looked for but could not find any evidence that the private collection agency selected individuals for the survey based on their perception of what the responses would be. I would point out that the same agency testified that there were zero, no violations of any privacy rights through 51,000, and growing, cases, zero violations. And I do wish that those telephone tapes could be played here on the House floor so members of the public as well as Congress could hear the professionalism of those phone calls as they seek to identify sensitively the individuals who do owe dollars to the American taxpayers.
I will point out, too, that if these debts were so easy to collect by the IRS, why did the IRS already have four opportunities to collect them from each taxpayer before they were turned over to these agencies, who have done such a good job, a solid job of collecting them?
With that, I would yield 6 minutes to the gentleman from New York (Mr. Reynolds) who has not only fought on behalf of taxpayers but has a number of women and minority workers and professionals in his district who have done a wonderful job in this arena.
(Mr. REYNOLDS asked and was given permission to revise and extend his remarks.)
Mr. Speaker, I would point out that while the claim has been made that our taxpayers have been harassed, IRS itself has testified there is a 97 percent satisfaction rate with the process that is already in place with these private collection agencies. I must point out, too, that while a claim is made that past Congresses starved the IRS, the truth is actually the opposite. The agency last year added over 200 new field collection personnel. This year's budget will add even more agents to the IRS. This program that is being sought to be eliminated has already generated almost $6 million for more IRS agents in a collection agency.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to inquire how much time does each side have remaining.
At this time, I would reserve the balance of my time.
I would point out it is difficult to have an abusive program when there is 97 percent customer satisfaction and zero privacy violations and zero Fair Debt Collection Act violations. Zero. I point out as far as efficiency, you don't have to take anyone's word on this floor if this program is working. Attached to this bill is testimony that says eliminating it will cost the U.S. taxpayers $1 billion.
So you don't have to take our word for it. The experts who are independent, who have looked at this issue, know this is an efficient program for the U.S. taxpayers.
Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.
MR. POMEROY. Mr. Speaker, our information is somewhat different from the information just propounded. We believe indeed the record would show there have been 83 complaints. These complaints include taxpayers who have
received letters with another taxpayer's information inside. Now, if this isn't a taxpayer privacy violation, I don't know what is. At least one fine has been assessed, and this is in the early going of the program.
Mr. Speaker, I will acknowledge perfection is a pretty hard standard to meet, but they have not met perfection and they have not generated the money in collection that was advertised at the beginning of this endeavor.
With that, I yield 2\1/2\ minutes to my friend the gentleman from New Jersey (Mr. Rothman), who has long had concerns about this initiative and worked hard to end it.
Mr. Speaker, I would point out that private debt collection is used by 40 different States, whose Governors are Republican and Democrat, and thousands of local government agencies and organizations, again, both Republican and Democrat. This isn't an issue of privatization, it is an issue of efficiency. This partnership between the IRS and private debt collectors for this group of taxpayers who are hard to collect those taxes from will yield an additional $1 billion for the American people.
With that, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. Speaker, I would remind the Chamber that more than 40 States, not just this administration, more than 40 States, Democrat Governors and Republican Governors, use the exact same type of collection techniques, the same partnerships, to do what is right for the American people.
I would point out that we have heard claims today of literally tens of thousands of people who have been harassed by these private debt collectors, all the abuses. I would simply challenge you to name one. In this debate today, name one. Name the person, name the case where there was a privacy abuse or thousands of harassing phone calls. I would predict there will be no name mentioned.
Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. Speaker, I would point out that attached to the majority's bill that this House is considering today, according to the majority's bill, the Joint Tax Group testifies and asserts that this program, that is working today, will collect $1 billion more. You can hear every claim you want on this House floor, but their own bill says to the American public that this program will collect $1 billion more than if it were to be eliminated. That is not at dispute today.
Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from New York (Mr. Reynolds).
Mr. Speaker, may I inquire as to the time remaining.
I will be brief, Mr. Speaker.
We hear a lot of claims today about the efficiency of this program. But our agencies, the independent agencies, the Government Accountability Office and Joint Tax, make the point attached to this legislation that this program has worked, is working efficiently, and will save U.S. taxpayers more than $1 billion.
You will hear today about abuses. But the fact of the matter is they can name not one in any independent agency, including the IRS, the Treasury. Examination of the program has showed 97 percent customer satisfaction, zero privacy violations, and zero Fair Debt Collection Act violations, zero, no matter what is talked about.
Mr. Speaker, the truth of the matter is, the question before us today is not about privatization. This is about credibility. This majority has talked about closing the tax gap, what is owed and what is paid. Yet today we will widen that tax gap by over $1 billion. So the question is will we walk the walk, or just talk the talk about the tax gap.
This partnership between the IRS and these private collection agencies is working for the American public. We ought to let it continue to work for the American public, because we can use that $1 billion for health care, for education, for helping our veterans, for a number of important priorities in this budget.
And we will have some type of a financial standoff here in a few months, yet we let $1 billion escape our grasp. I urge a ``no'' vote on the bill.
Mr. Speaker, I yield back the balance of my time.