Mr. President, I begin by complimenting the Senator from South Dakota on the work he has done on fuel cell hydrogen over the years, and also compliment others on the other side of the aisle--I see the ranking member of the committee,…
Mr. President, I begin by complimenting the Senator from South Dakota on the work he has done on fuel cell hydrogen over the years, and also compliment others on the other side of the aisle--I see the ranking member of the committee, Senator Bingaman from New Mexico. For at least a dozen years, this Congress, and particularly this Senate, has been interested in the hydrogen fuel cell technology. The Senator from North Dakota and the Senator from New Mexico are the ones who have pushed that the hardest.
What we have now is some consensus, at least in our committee, and I hope in the Senate at large, on the importance of this bold proposal. I will take a moment to put in perspective what the committee has done.
I would be happy to.
I thank the Senator for his comments, but the bottom line is the process by which this committee worked on the hydrogen fuel cell proposal, which is title 8 of the Energy bill, which was a good process for those who would like to see how two parties in an evenly divided Senate can take an issue and come to some consensus and narrow the differences. It was a pretty good process. What is remaining are the two issues of which the Senator from North Dakota spoke.
One is more money and two is more mandates, which he now has suggested are targets, if I understand correctly, rather than mandates. Am I correct in that?
Yes.
I thank the Senator. So that narrows the differences considerably.
Having acknowledged the good work done on the other side, I will also acknowledge the good work the President did. Only a President of whatever party can put something on the agenda the way a President can, and so it was exciting to all of us who cared about this issue and about the goals, which are to reduce our dependence on foreign oil and to clean the air, which is what this does, to see President Bush, in his State of the Union Address, make a bold proposal to direct the Secretary of Energy to explore the possibility of a hydrogen economy and to develop the next generation of technology that would include hydrogen.
What we are really talking about, as the Senator from North Dakota explained, is a completely new way of thinking and living our lives. I noticed the other day in our local newspaper in Tennessee there was a picture of a filling station in Iceland that opened. Iceland has a hydrogen filling station. The buses that operate in Iceland back up to that hydrogen filling station and instead of putting gasoline in their tanks, they put in hydrogen. They drive around on the hydrogen, and instead of emitting some carbon-based pollutant into the air, they emit only water, which is the product of that process.
It takes a little while for someone who has not thought about this much, as I was at one time, to get one's mind around this, but we are basically taking the internal combustion engine and putting it to the side and putting in a new process that reduces electricity, runs the car and, as the Senator said, the only emission is water. So there is an enormous advantage on two matters that concern us greatly: One is reduce our dependence on Middle Eastern oil, and we are in the middle of a process right now where we have been reminded about what a challenge that is to our national security. Some estimates are that by the year 2035 or 2040 we would have 11 million barrels per day less of reliance on our need for oil if we had a hydrogen economy. No one can know for certain what those numbers are, but all of us know it is a big change and a big number.
Of course, the second aspect is clean air. This week, and for the next few weeks, we will be talking about ways to clean the air. The most interesting, and difficult sometimes, arguments we have that come before our committee and the country are those that intersect with energy and the environment. Here is a nice intersection between energy and the environment because if we are emitting only water, then the parts of our economy, and especially the transportation parts that use hydrogen-based cars instead of the internal combustion engine, will make a remarkable difference in not just our clean air but our standard of living because our lack of clean air and our difficulty with finding ways to clean the air is a limit on our ability to grow our economy. So this is a very important topic and all of us recognize it as such.
Now let me start with the President's proposal, to put this in perspective, including the Senator's amendment. The President's proposal authorizes the Department of Energy, including our National Laboratories, to spend about $1.3 billion over the next 5 years in research and development in the following areas: research on hydrogen- powered engines, and research on the production of hydrogen.
We have to make the stuff. It can come from many places. It can come from fossil fuels. It can come from renewable resources, a major part of the discussion in the Energy bill last week. It can come from nuclear energy, which is a major part of the discussion in the Energy bill this week. At a nuclear power plant one might be able to produce some of the hydrogen that would clean the air. And it can come from natural gas, which is the easiest way, arguably, to get it today. But with the recent spikes in the price of natural gas, we can see the difficulty relying on one form of energy too greatly.
The President's proposal would fund additional research on transportation and delivery of hydrogen via pipelines and fueling stations. Iceland has a hydrogen fueling station. We do not have any in the United States. We have a few hundred miles of hydrogen pipeline. Imagine a different America where, instead of backing your car or truck up every block--sometimes more often than one block--to a station where you get gasoline, you back it up or drive into a place where you fill up with hydrogen. That is a big change in our infrastructure. This research would help figure out how better to do that.
Also, we need additional fuel cell research. The Senator mentioned some of the obstacles that exist to this wonderful vision. One of the difficulties is we need to find new ways to produce hydrogen, which I mentioned. Another is we need to find a little cheaper way of building a hydrogen car. The Senator and I drove the same one, I believe a Ford, around the block. I believe that car costs a couple million per unit to make right now. In other words, the early models are extremely expensive.
We need to find safe ways to store hydrogen. We need to meet the challenge of this infrastructure.
We have great obstacles to overcome. But in this United States of America, if anything defines our national ethic, it is that anything is possible. We are ready to leap ahead and go after this. The President recommended we put $1.3 billion behind it, and that was step 1 in this session. Then the committee sat down and began to recognize the suggestions made by those who had gone before. Instead of the $1.3 billion recommendation the President made, we took those recommendations, reduced some of them to what we thought were a manageable number, and still more than doubled the amount of money we recommend to the full Senate that we authorize--nearly $3 billion total. As the Senator from North Dakota said, nearly triple the amount of money. So in addition to the President's $1.3 billion proposal, we have about $1.6 billion more for other ideas brought into the bill by people other than the President, from the Senate and the other side.
We have a hydrogen vehicle demonstration program for the Government and nonprofit agencies; a stationery fuel cell demonstration program for use in residential and commercial buildings; a hydrogen car and fuel cell demonstration program in three national parks. That is a terrific idea. I would like to see one in the Great Smoky Mountains, our most polluted national park today. Many people think of Yellowstone as receiving the most visitors; but only 3 million people visit Yellowstone while 10 million go to the Great Smoky Mountains. The Great Smokies is polluted, particularly because of the cars and coal plants.
An idea for which I commend the Senator is providing for the establishment of a university education degree curriculum designed to help our workforce move into a hydrogen economy, with centers of excellence in our great research universities to help realize this shared vision. In the United States, we have the world's only great research universities. They are our secret weapon. We need to fund them and the research and technology better. That is a sure way to move toward this goal.
This bill before the Senate today is a combination of ideas from both parties, from the President and from the Legislature. The amounts we included, taking ideas from the other side to the bill, actually cost more than the proposal from the President--nearly $3 billion.
That brings us to the point of the amendment. Is it enough money? Do we need targets? I will respond to that in this way. The President mentioned the Apollo. That is vivid in our minds. I remember as Education Secretary I tried to think, using that Apollo objective, which sticks in our minds to say, can we have in 10 or 20 years the best schools in the world? Nothing is quite like that Apollo mission. It is always hard to make an analogy, but the President has the same dream that we have here. The dream is that we have an America less dependent on foreign oil, an America that has cleaner air, something that increases our national security and our health and well-being.
However, there are other parts to that dream than just the hydrogen car. There is, if we are talking about energy, the need to revive our nuclear energy. Japan was decimated by an atomic bomb, and they are relying primarily on nuclear energy. And France is relying primarily on nuclear energy. It has been since the 1970s that we started a new nuclear power reactor in this country. So this bill, in addition to hydrogen, is to help stimulate our nuclear energy.
We need not just stimulate nuclear and hydrogen; we need to find a way to burn coal in a cleaner way. We make half our electricity from coal, but it pollutes the air more than we can tolerate. So we need coal gasification, as an example. This bill encourages that. The Senator from North Dakota mentioned wind turbines in North Dakota. They are part of the dream as well. Natural gas is part of the dream. Its price went up, so we need to explore more and we need pipelines to get that gas to the places it needs to go. This bill encourages that. We need more new oil that is not dependent on some other country. We have tried--although we do not always agree in this body on where to drill-- to do that.
So the dream of clean air and less dependence on foreign oil has many parts, including the hydrogen vision the President outlined in his address, so that a child born today can have a choice in this generation of driving a car fueled by a fuel cell hydrogen engine.
The Apollo dream is not exactly the same. We have a dream, but this is only a part of the dream.
As far as the amount of money is concerned, I suppose one could always argue about the amount of money. We considered that very carefully in the committee. We nearly tripled the amount of money the President requested. We took into account virtually all of the suggestions by the Senator and others on the other side, which is why this bill came to the floor from the committee, because we had such a consensus. For a new technology which, while bold, is still unproven, we believe this is a generous amount of support in a bill that is balanced across a broad number of sources of new and improved energy.
That brings me to the targets and the timetables. I appreciate the Senator moving from mandates to targets and timetables. That is a step forward. However, I prefer we not make, if I may say with respect, wild guesses about how this unproven technology might work, but that we join as we have in this bill to find a variety of ways to stimulate and not fool ourselves into thinking we are going to get to this point or that point in any particular year.
President Kennedy said let's go to the Moon, and he said by when he hoped to go, but he didn't say fly this kind of airplane, or use this kind of rocket, or get a third of the way there by 1963. He said, Let us go there.
So let us go toward a day when we have cleaner air and when we have less dependence on foreign oil because of a variety of steps, one of the most impressive of which is the vision of a hydrogen fuel cell car. But let us not try to make a wild guess just about when that will come, in what year. I believe one of the greatest underutilized powers of this body is the oversight power. Really, the Senate, the Congress, has two great functions: One is to spend
money, and one is to oversee how that money is spent. There is nothing to keep us from that. In fact, as chairman of the Energy Subcommittee, I would want to make it part of my responsibility to regularly ask the Secretary of Energy to come forward with his plan, about what progress he is making, and suggest to him faster progress, and to ask him what timetables seem reasonable.
There is another aspect to this, too. The Government is not going to invent the hydrogen car. No one has suggested the Government will. We are just providing some free commercial researching. But we should leave it to the market to make the greatest progress in determining what timetables will work, what targets make sense, what research will finally work, and what the customers will buy.
I had an opportunity within the last couple of weeks to talk with the chief executive of Nissan, Mr. Ghosn, who has had a remarkable record. In 1999, Nissan had a $19 billion debt and was headed down. Today, it has no debt. It is headed up. I asked him about the hydrogen car because some of my scientist friends had been throwing a little cold water on the idea, saying some of us in the Senate were coming up with a pipedream that might never work. Here is what the head of Nissan said, and he said this publicly: Nissan is spending $800 million in the next 7 years on research just on fuel cell hydrogen cars. He wants to be, and has publicly stated that Nissan intends to be, not just a leader but the leader in that area. In other words, they are putting money there, real dollars. They are making that kind of investment of prestige and dollars.
Toyota and Honda, industry sources tell me, are spending at least that much of their own money. And the General Motors president has said to me he takes this seriously as well.
So the President's focus on the hydrogen car has done one good thing. It has taken the work that has been done in this body in the last 10 or 12 years on hydrogen and put it in this bill in the form of $1.6 billion. It has taken the President's own proposals of research--that is another $1.3 billion. But the real value is the President's proposal, and our agreement on this, if we do agree, will put this up front, create a national commitment, the kind of commitment we had when we went to the Moon. That is right. It is that kind of national commitment. But let us realize that when we went to the Moon, we went in reasonable steps and this plan for cleaner air and for less dependence on foreign oil has many parts, including other forms of energies, and the timetables and the targets are best left to the marketplace.
So I rise to say this represents great progress by the committee. I commend, again, the Senator for his leadership. I urge that we not support an amendment creating wild guesses and artificial targets and timetables, but move forward and let the marketplace help us make sensible judgments about that, using our oversight role as Senators to make sure the program stays on course.
Mr. President, the Senator from North Dakota and I agree on so much about this subject that I am not going to extend this discussion very much further for fear of dredging up something that we might disagree on because we don't have many differences here.
If I may briefly comment, I was listening to the Senator's discussion of that bar in North Dakota. When I was growing up in the mountains of Tennessee, Blount County was a dry county, we didn't have bars, but we had Byrne Drugstore, which is where all that same kind of discussion must have occurred.
I was just thinking. Talking about the suggested timetables, the Senator suggested that, for example, we have in here a timetable of 100,000 hydrogen fuel cell vehicles in the United States by 2010. I was wondering what they would say in Byrne Drugstore if I went back to it and said I just became a Senator, and I drove a new hydrogen fuel cell car around the block which emits water out the tailpipe and doesn't burn any gasoline. The car costs $2 million a car to make. I got so excited about it I went over to the Senate and I voted to say we ought to have 100,000 of those in the United States by 2010 and 2\1/2\ million of them by 2020.
I think they would say to me: Well, Lamar, I think you got carried away a little bit. At 2 million times 100,000, how do you know what the cost of that car is going to be in 2010? I might say: Well, I may not have really meant that. We meet every year, and we can change that next year if we want to.
They might say to me: Why did you put it in there in the first place if you didn't know that much about what you were talking about? The idea sounds exciting, but why would you guess how you would take a $2 million car and make sure it made any sense at all to target that we have 100,000 of them in the United States by 2010? What ability does the U.S. Government have to wave a magic wand and make sure that happens?
I was then thinking, too, about all the automobile companies both the
Senator and I talked about. Now, they are hot on this. I mentioned Mr. Ghosn at Nissan. He wanted to make sure I knew he intended not just to be a player in the fuel cell hydrogen car, he intends to be ``the'' player, and he is going to spend $800 million of his company's dollars on research in this far out idea that probably will not be commercially viable--none of us believe--for 15, 20, or 25 years.
That is a big step. But I really doubt Mr. Ghosn went to his board or the chairman of General Motors went to his board or the chairman of Ford went to his board and said: I want you to authorize that we require that our company make a certain number of these cars by a certain year. I think they would say: You are not being entirely realistic. You have gotten a little carried away.
So I want to show great respect for the Senator's goals, his hard work, and his energy. We agree on 95 percent of this. But I think to adopt those kinds of targets and timetables--to use a gentler word-- might be misleading at the very least because I don't think that is the way to go about it.
Let's encourage it in any way we can--and we tried to do that here-- and then let's have oversight on a regular basis. Then, if the technology is proven enough that it makes sense for us to be a little more specific, well, maybe we can take it up then. But if I went into the Byrne Drugstore in Blount County, and said, ``I have just driven a $2 million car around the block and then went over and voted we ought to have 100,000 of them by a particular year,'' I think they would think I had gotten a little carried away with my good idea.
Mr. President, I thank the Senator. I thank him for his amendment. I know he is leaving, and I will not take advantage of that by continuing the debate. I have had a chance to say almost all I want to say.
The president of Nissan is a good example, actually. He has gone before his board and said he wants to spend $800 million. I do not think he went before the board and said he wanted to have 100,000 Nissan cars and trucks on the road in 2010 whether they worked and no matter how much they cost. That is the difference here.
I respectfully suggest there is a blueprint in this legislation, much of it provided by the Senator from North Dakota himself. The President's blueprint includes research on hydrogen-powered engines. That is what the $1.3 billion in research is for--research on the production of hydrogen fuel cells, et cetera, research on the transportation and delivery of hydrogen via pipelines and fueling stations, research on how to store hydrogen better and safer, on additional research on the fuel cell engine.
Because of the Senator from North Dakota and others, there is a blueprint for various demonstration programs, which I mentioned earlier--the vehicle demonstration program for Government and nonprofit agencies, the stationary fuel cell demonstration program, hydrogen car and fuel cell demonstration programs in national parks,
the Centers of Excellence at the university. Those are very specific proposals.
So I respectfully suggest we have a good bill. We have a broad bipartisan consensus that we have a bold vision, and yet with unproven technology it is not wise for us in the Government to try to guess just how many of those cars there might be but to encourage it and let those who make the cars do it as rapidly as possible and use their talents to persuade consumers to buy the cars.
I yield the floor.
Mr. President, I have one short reaction to the comment of the Senator from New Hampshire. I will have nothing further to say on the amendment.
The Senator from New Hampshire reminds me of an experience I had in 1980, discussing the idea of predicting a new technology. I hope my friend Fred Smith, chairman and chief executive of Federal Express, will not mind my using him as an example. All this is public information. In the early 1980s, although it is hard to recognize this today, no one knew what to do with the fax. They didn't know what would be the future of the fax machine. There were those who were saying it would revolutionize communications as much as the fuel cell might revolutionize the automobile.
Mr. Smith, since he was in the business of delivering overnight packages, had to think about what the fax machine might do to Federal Express. He thought about it, and he came to this conclusion: His conclusion was that probably by the end of the 1980s, all Americans would go down to the street corner and find a Fed Ex fax machine and they would use the Fed Ex fax machine on their street corner to send a fax to their friends wherever in the world they might want to do that. That was his vision of what might happen with that new technology.
Well, we have seen what has happened since then. People didn't go down to the street corner and send a fax to their friend. Everybody has a fax in his or her office. Many people have them in their homes. They became personal faxes. Mr. Smith was wrong about that. Fed Ex lost a few hundred millions dollars. Fortunately for Tennessee, he had other great ideas, and Fed Ex is our leading employer in Tennessee today because of his entrepreneurial spirit.
But what if the Congress had gotten excited and said: Fred Smith has a great idea. The fax is a great invention and has an unlimited future. Let's pass a law saying that the Senate, having heard about the fax, hereby decrees that by the year 1990, there shall be a fax on 100,000 street corners in America and by 1992, there will be 300,000 faxes on street corners. All those faxes would be in the wrong places because the Senate, with respect, would not have known enough about the future to know what it was talking about. It was right about its vision of the fax. It was wrong about how far that might work; Fed Ex was at that time.
The analogy is pretty good here as well. We have a broad consensus on our excitement about the hydrogen car fuel cell and what it might do, not just for the automobile but throughout our economy. It is part of a balanced approach to toward energy. It could make the air cleaner and reduce our dependence on foreign oil. We are recommending $3 billion to stimulate precommercial research on that. But let's not put ourselves, in the Congress, in the position of making the same kind of mistake we might have made 20 years ago if we had passed a law suggesting we have 100,000 fax machines on the street corners of America.
I yield the floor and suggest the absence of a quorum.