Mr. President, how much time remains? How much time remains for the Senator from Montana and also on the majority side? Mr. President, it would seem to me the Senator from Iowa would want to use some…
Mr. President, how much time remains?
How much time remains for the Senator from Montana and also on the majority side?
Mr. President, it would seem to me the Senator from Iowa would want to use some time at this point. I suggest the absence of a quorum and ask that the time run against the Senator from Iowa.
Mr. President, I shall not object, but I wonder if I might add to the unanimous consent request. Senator DeWine has asked for 10 minutes of Senator Grassley's time; we ask that Senator Byrd be recognized for 20 minutes from my time following the presentation by Senator DeWine; following that, Senator Burr be recognized for 10 minutes from Senator Grassley's time; following that, Senator Reid will be recognized for 10 minutes from Senator Baucus's time. I ask that by unanimous consent.
Senator Reid from Nevada.
Thank you. I apologize for interrupting my colleague.
Mr. President, I suggest the absence of a quorum.
Mr. President, I have great respect for all of my colleagues no matter what they decide to do on this vote. I think the vote is probably predetermined this evening. I must say there are a lot of promises I have heard on the floor the last day or so. There have been a lot of promises made downtown. I would only point out that I have seen the result of most of these promises after the votes are taken and most of them have not been worth the paper they are written on or the assurances given have not been valuable at all.
One might want to look at the side agreement dealing with sugar from Mexico; one can then go on to a sweetener agreement with Mexico; then can go on to a lot of these areas and understand that there are a lot of promises in order to get these bills passed, but by and large they do not amount to very much. They will not need anybody in this Senate after the ``yes'' votes are cast.
I start at the beginning, if I might. I know we are nearing the end of this debate. I do not want to go all the way back to the beginning, but let me go back a fair piece. It is when John Adams is in Europe as they are putting this new country together. He is in Europe representing our country. He writes back to his wife Abigail and asks Abigail the question: Where is the leadership going to come from? Where will the leadership emerge to help form this great country of ours, to help form a new government?
He plaintively kept asking, where will the leadership come from? Then in subsequent letters he would say to her, there is really only us. There is me. There is Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, George Washington, Madison, Mason. Of course, in the rearview mirror of history, the only ``us'' represents some of the greatest human talent ever assembled. They wrote a document that is the most remarkable document. It is a document called the U.S. Constitution that begins with ``we the people.'' That Constitution that begins with ``we the people'' provides mechanisms, the framework of our Government, the framework of a representative democracy.
Over many years, with that document providing the fabric of the growth of this great country, we have been a country that has been divinely blessed in many ways. We have built a place unlike any other place on the face of this Earth. There is no place like it. One can spin the globe and on this little planet called Earth, with 6 billion neighbors, there is no place quite like the United States of America.
We created an expanded set of opportunities for all Americans, through a lot of good decisions; for example, universal education. We as a country decided long ago every young child ought to be whatever their God-given talents allow them to be. We are not going to separate kids in our school system. They get to go to school and they get to become whatever their talents allow that child to become.
That universal education for all Americans has created a country that is unlike any other in the world. We went from the Colonies to the States. We survived a Civil War. We beat back a Depression. We resisted the oppression of Adolf Hitler, won a Second World War. We provided a GI bill, and when those soldiers came back from that war, they went to college. They got their college degrees. They came back to their communities. They built a home, got married, raised a family, built schools, built communities. What a remarkable country this has been.
It all comes back to this book, this Constitution. Other countries have constitutions, but none are quite like this Constitution. This Constitution says something about international trade and commerce. It describes the regulation of commerce and trade to the Congress. It is our responsibility, not the President's responsibility.
So over a number of years we have worked on and dealt with these issues and then we have had in many ways an almost breathtaking series of decades. We have split the atom, we have spliced genes, we have cloned animals, we invented plastics, nylon, the radar, the silicon chip. We cured polio, smallpox. We built airplanes, learned to fly them. We built rockets, flew to the Moon and walked on the Moon. We created telephones, television sets, computers. What a remarkable set of achievements for the men and women in this country who are the doers, the achievers, the inventors. We stand on each other's shoulders looking to the future.
So about three decades ago things began to change. This world became smaller. We started hearing about the global economy. We began to do more and travel more and have more connections with other parts of the world, and particularly large corporations which were developed because of economies of scale. Those large corporations began to be able to do business in more than one country. Then they defined for their own interests the opportunities by which they would do that business. It then became a global economy. In that global economy, we began to hear the term free trade, free trade, like a chant, almost like the hare krishna chanting on a street corner, wearing robes: Free trade.
Well, free trade is of little interest to me. I am very interested in expanded trade and fair trade, but free trade, there are a lot of things that are free.
This country built a place unlike any other on the face of this Earth and we need to be concerned about its continuation. So the question is what kind of trade gives us the opportunity to continue improving the standard of living in America, creating an economy that produces new jobs and new opportunities?
I am sure every single set of parents in this country wants things better for their kids. If there is something in second place, beyond the importance of their children, I guess I understand that, but everybody would believe, I expect, that what is most important in their lives is their children. We care about these things that affect our children. Are we sending our kids to good schools? Are we proud of these schools? Do we believe we are able to leave a world that is a better place in which to live than the one we found? Is that what we are going to do for our kids?
So as we confront this question of the new global economy and a new
global strategy, the galloping globalization of our economy, without a set of rules that has kept pace, the question for all of us is: What does it mean for our country? What does it mean for our future? What does it mean for our kids--especially our kids?
In the past decade, we have seen a very substantial loss of American jobs. Some people say, do not worry, be happy, ignore it. It is all part of the transition. What we will see is our low-skilled jobs move elsewhere, we will educate our children, and we will assume the role of high-skill, high-paying jobs; don't worry.
So we pass trade laws. They are called CAFTA and NAFTA and GATT, WTO. We do all of these things. Then somehow, at the end of this process, we look back and we see, you know, something fundamentally has changed. Somebody has pulled the rug out from under what are the basic strengths of this country--a good job that pays well, that provides benefits, that you can count on.
About 30 years ago the biggest corporation in America was General Motors. In most cases, people who went to work for General Motors expected to work there for a lifetime. They were paid well and they had benefits, health care and retirement. That was 30 years ago.
Now the largest corporation is Wal-Mart. They do not pay so well. Most people do not spend a lifetime at Wal-Mart. The average wage is much lower, and a fairly substantial number of their employees do not have benefits.
That is a very substantial change, really a dramatic change in our country. But the biggest change has been the development of a set of ideas by those who are able to influence thought in this country, particularly the largest corporations that have unlimited quantities of money, who convinced us that free trade, as a moniker, is a mechanism for success in our country.
So we pass trade agreements, the end of which means we lose American jobs, lose economic strength, and somehow believe that somewhere in the future things are going to get better.
I want to show a chart I have shown many times during this debate. It is a chart that shows what has happened with our trade deficit. This is a dangerous trend. Behind these red lines are lost jobs, families who lost their jobs, hundreds of them, thousands of them, and millions of them. Not many people in here know those people. No one in this Chamber lost his or her job because we all put a suit and necktie on and come to work. Nobody is going to get outsourced or offshored in the Senate. But all these folks did.
I have lists of companies and lists of names of people who just lost their job because of this new approach, a new defined approach in international trade that says in our country, we will be the leader that says go ahead and find, with the mechanism of production, the lowest cost production in the world. Get your Gulfstream, circle the globe and find out where you can produce for 30 cents an hour. Move that job to that area and, by the way, when you do, we will give you a tax cut. Let me say that again, because that is kind of a Byzantine proposition. When you close your American factory and fire your American workers, you get a tax cut from our Government. And, yes, I have tried twice to change that in the Senate and, yes, a majority of the Senate voted to keep a tax cut for workers who get fired and companies that move those jobs overseas. I will put in the Congressional Record their names. I really don't need to. A very easy Nexis-Lexis search will give you the names of who decided they should keep their tax cuts for companies that move their jobs overseas.
The point is, we are seeing this inevitable, relentless move to produce where it is cheap and then sell into the established marketplace. The problem is, this is unsustainable. This is a theory that is off track and it is a practice that injures this country.
Why do I say the theory is off track? Henry Ford decided, when he was going to make Fords, that he wanted to pay his production workers sufficient money so that they could buy the cars they were producing. That is pretty simple. That is simple economics. If you are paying your workers enough money so they can buy the products they are producing, you have a market and a consumer for the product. A pretty smart guy, Henry Ford.
Now it has changed. Now we should produce those shirts and those shoes and those trousers and all the trinkets where you can do it for 30 cents an hour and then ship it to Fargo and Toledo and Dayton and Los Angeles and New York and sell it there.
The question is, Who ultimately is going to buy that? Who ultimately will buy this?
We have a lot of dislocations that are dangerous. I have not talked at all about this, and I will not talk at length. A part of this, by the way, is oil. A part of this is oil. There are some on this globe who are lucky enough to have enough oil under the sands so if you stand in a depression in the sand with boots, your soles are going to look oily because some parts of this world are loaded with oil, particularly the Middle East. So the Saudis, Kuwaitis, Iraqis, and others have a lot of oil. We are desperately and hopelessly addicted to it. Our economy is addicted to it, and that is part of this. It also relates to jobs because, when you have the purchase of oil from these countries--Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and so on--they end up with American dollars, which means they want to buy American companies. They want to buy American stock. It is a way of buying part of our country.
In today's newspaper it says, ``China Tells U.S. Not To Meddle in the Bid for California Oil Giant.''
The story is the Chinese want to buy the ninth largest oil and gas company in the United States called Unocal.
Why would they want to buy Unocal? They are like everybody else. They want to control oil to the extent they can. The Chinese, I am told, now have 20 million cars. They have 1.3 billion people. By 15 years from now they are expected to have 120 million automobiles. They are going to need gas. They are going to need a lot of gas. The price of oil is not going to go down, it is going to go up. They want to buy an oil company. I don't think this should happen in a million years, by the way. I don't think we should have the Chinese buying American oil companies, but I will tell you why this is happening. It is happening because these trade deficits are putting massive amounts of money in the hands of Chinese, and it gives them the opportunity to purchase, on the open market, America's stocks, bonds, companies.
I mentioned previously that Warren Buffett, whom I like a lot--I think he is the second richest man in the world, but you would never know it. Warren is just a great guy. Warren Buffett described this problem as ``a country that is now aspiring to an ownership society will not find happiness in a sharecropper society.''
This is where we are heading, he says, a sharecropper society. He describes this is when every day, 7 days a week, you put $2 billion in the hands of foreigners. You are buying $2 billion more from foreigners than you are selling to them every day, 7 days a week. You are putting $2 billion more into hands of foreigners and foreign governments. That means each day they have more purchasing power to buy another part of America. That is where this comes from. The Chinese want to by Unocal. That is where the money comes from, the $140 billion trade deficit with China last year. That means they have our country's currency. They have the capability of buying our stocks and our companies.
The question is, Do we care about that? Does anybody here want to change the strategy or do you want to do some more of it?
The attitude in the Senate, as I think we will discover when the vote is taken tonight is that if you are digging yourself into a hole, what you need is more shovels and just dig a little harder. That makes no sense to me.
If there is one person in the U.S. Congress who does not understand the danger of this, then they are in the wrong business. This is trouble. This comes from CAFTA, it comes from GATT, it comes from incompetent trade negotiators and bad trade deal after bad trade deal. I just heard on the floor of the Senate today, I will bet you six people who talked about promises that have been made to them in order to get this trade deal through the Congress. These promises mean nothing. These are totally, completely empty promises.
Let me briefly describe this. I am going to use Warren Buffett to describe it because, again, I like Warren Buffett. He described it this way. Stay with me just for a moment.
To understand why, take a wildly fanciful trip with me to
two isolated, side-by-side islands of equal size,
Squanderville and Thriftville. Land is the only capital asset
on these islands, and their communities are primitive,
needing only food and producing only food. Working eight
hours a day, in fact, each inhabitant can produce enough food
to sustain himself or herself. And for a long time that's how
things go along. On each island everybody works the
prescribed eight hours a day, which means that each society
is self-sufficient.
Eventually, though, the industrious citizens of Thriftville
decide to do some serious saving and investing, and they
start to work 16 hours a day. In this mode they continue to
live off the food they produce in eight hours of work but
begin exporting an equal amount to their one and only trading
outlet, Squanderville.
The citizens of Squanderville are ecstatic about this turn
of events, since they can now live their lives free from toil
but eat as well as ever. Oh, yes, there's a quid pro quo--but
to the Squanders, it seems harmless: All that the Thrifts
want in exchange for their food is Squanderbonds (which are
denominated, naturally, in Squanderbucks).
Over time Thriftville accumulates an enormous amount of
these bonds, which at their core represent claim checks on
the future output of Squanderville. A few pundits in
Squanderville smell trouble coming. They foresee that for the
Squanders both to eat and to pay off--or simply service--the
debt they're piling up will eventually require them to work
more than eight hours a day. But the residents of
Squanderville are in no mood to listen to such doomsaying.
Meanwhile, the citizens of Thriftville begin to get
nervous. Just how good, they ask, are the IOUs of a shiftless
island? So the Thrifts change strategy: Though they continue
to hold some bonds, they sell most of them to Squanderville
residents for Squanderbucks and use the proceeds to buy
Squanderville land. And eventually the Thrifts own all of
Squanderville.
At that point, the Squanders are forced to deal with an
ugly equation: They must now not only return to working eight
hours a day in order to eat--they have nothing left to
trade--but must also work additional hours to service their
debt and pay Thriftville rent on the land so imprudently
sold. In effect, Squanderville has been colonized by purchase
rather than conquest.
That is my friend Warren Buffett's description of what is happening. And it is why, by the way, the Chinese have the money to buy Unocal. This is about Squanderville and Thriftville. The question he asks: Is anybody listening? Regrettably, the answer in the Senate is: Precious few.
I have spoken at great length about companies. I have not spoken previously about Pennsylvania House, which I will do just for a moment. I have talked about Huffy bicycles, Radio Flyer little red wagons, Fig Newton cookies--which, by the way, went to Monterrey, Mexico, so if you want some Mexican food, order Fig Newton cookies.
Let me tell you about Pennsylvania House Furniture, high-end furniture made with Pennsylvania wood, hardwood and cherry wood, high- end, terrific furniture, made for many decades in Pennsylvania and marketed as Pennsylvania Furniture.
Pennsylvania House Furniture was purchased by Lazy Boy Corporation about 4 years ago. Lazy Boy decided it is just too expensive to manufacture Pennsylvania House furniture in Pennsylvania, so we have to move it to China. Now Pennsylvania House furniture will be made in China. They will ship the wood from Pennsylvania to China, the hardwood, the cherry wood. They will put it together in China and ship the furniture back.
So it is for Robert Zechman. Robert Zechman worked for that company for 29 years. On December 21, four days from Christmas, he got his letter: You get $92-a-year severance for the service you have given this great company. Now we are shipping the wood and your job to China. They put the furniture together and ship it back. We will still call it Pennsylvania House Furniture, but the only Pennsylvania part of that furniture is the wood. The people are expendable.
The question is, Does anybody care about that? Does it matter to anybody? It mattered to Pennsylvania. Governor Rendell said: We have 500 people who work here. We would like to save these jobs. They put together an effort to save those jobs. Finally, we were told that Lazy Boy said: We are not interested in having competition domestically, so we are not going to sell. We are moving to China.
Same story with Huffy bicycles. Same story with dozens and dozens and dozens of companies.
I spoke last week about a refrigerator company that decided they will close their American plant, notify the workers: No jobs in this country for you anymore. Why? Because we are going to make those refrigerators in Mexico. And, by the way, just to rub salt in the wound, one part of the manufacturing plant with which they will manufacture those refrigerators in Mexico has an Ex-Im Bank loan. That is a loan subsidized by this Government to build a part of a plant in Mexico to house the jobs of the workers who were fired in this country to build some refrigerators.
Does it matter? Maybe not to some. It matters to me. Does it matter whether we make refrigerators? Does it matter whether we make fine furniture? Does it matter whether we have a manufacturing base? Will America remain a strong world-class economy if it gives its manufacturing sector away?
In the last 25 years, we have lost one-half of our manufacturing capacity. Is there anybody here who is having an apoplectic seizure about that? Not hardly. We snore our way through this. President after President gives us a new trade law to see if we can improve on this massive debt that keeps growing and growing and growing. In the meantime, Robert Zechman will probably ask his Congressman or his Senator: What is going on there? Are you standing up for America, standing up for jobs in this country? Absolutely, he will hear. You bet your life. We are all for American jobs. It is just that the trade agreements trade them away--quickly. The majority of the people in the House and the Senate are going to vote for these trade agreements.
America Online--December 2003--had just laid off 450 American employees, mostly design engineers and software engineers, in its California offices. Then those same engineers read that America Online was trying to hire software development teams and engineers in Bangalore, India. Does that mean you change your name to India Online, or is it still America Online that divests itself of U.S. employees and hires the engineers in Bangalore?
The list is endless. We come down, finally, to a choice, a choice this Senate will make once again on another trade agreement. The NAFTA trade agreement, called North American Free Trade Agreement, was negotiated between the United States, Mexico, and Canada. It was just one more chapter of bad trade agreements. But before that trade agreement, we had a slight surplus in trade with Mexico. We had a modest deficit with Canada. Now we have had about 10 years of trade agreements called NAFTA, and now we have a very large trade deficit with Mexico and a larger trade deficit with Canada. One would wonder if somebody would stand up and scratch their head and say: Gee, I wonder if we didn't make a mistake here.
The economists, by the way, who most trumpeted the benefits of NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement, were two economists named Hufbauer and Schott. I am sure they are still practicing economists. I see the names Hufbauer and Schott.
I actually used to teach economics. Economics is just a little bit of psychology pumped up with a lot of helium. I taught it for a little while and was able to overcome that experience and still lead a productive life.
But these economists, Hufbauer and Schott, said: If you just pass NAFTA, we will promise you a remarkable future. What will happen is jobs will transpose. We will see low-income, low-skilled jobs being performed by Mexicans and high-skill, high-wage jobs now producing a product to be sold into an emerging middle class in Mexico, and those will be produced in America.
These people were totally, completely wrong about everything. Has anybody said, We were wrong? Of course not. In this debate on CAFTA, which is another acronym--NAFTA, CAFTA, SHAFTA, whatever it is--on this debate, we are now hearing NAFTA was really good. Boy, if we could just get some more of this spoiled trade agreement, somehow things would be better off. They would not be better.
Let me try to tell you what I believe our obligation is. Yes, I want a strong
economy. Yes, I want American companies to understand we support their interest in competing around the world.
But I believe that, first of all, in the boardrooms they ought to say the Pledge of Allegiance from time to time. If we charter American corporations as artificial people--and that is what a corporate charter is about. We say we are going to create you as an artificial person. We are going to give you a charter which gives you limited liability. You can sue and be sued, contract and be contracted with. You are, in fact, an artificial person. If that artificial person, by corporate charter, given by this country, is in America, then it ought to care just a bit about this country's interests. And, yes, maybe just a recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance, occasionally, in the boardroom might help.
When we hear people say, ``We want all the benefits for our corporation being American, except the responsibility for paying taxes is something we want to shed,'' I worry about loyalty and commitment to this country. And, yes, that is happening. We see what is called inversions, where corporations want to renounce their American citizenship to become citizens of the Bahamas. Why? Because they want to become Bahamian citizens? No. Because they want to avoid paying U.S. taxes. I have always said, if they want to do that, if they run into trouble, let them call out the Bahamian Navy. My understanding is, there are about 24 people in the Bahamian Navy. Let them call on the Bahamian Navy.
The point is, I think we ought to support American companies in competing around the world, but we ought to expect certain things from them as well. The same is true with respect to other countries. Whether it is China, Japan, Europe or Korea, we should not any longer sit idly by and roll our eyes at trade agreements that are unfair to our workers and unfair to our companies.
Let me again mention just one specific piece of information. I do not mean to pick on Korea for the sake of picking on Korea. I have spoken about the Chinese automobile trade previously. Korea, this year, if this year is similar to last year, will likely send us about 680,000 Korean cars, all on ships, to be delivered to the United States, and to be sold in the United States--680,000 cars produced in Korea, with Korean labor, to be shipped to the United States.
Do you know how many cars the United States will produce that we will be able to sell in Korea? Do you think it will be 680,000? No, 3,900. Do you know why? Because Korea does not want American cars sold in Korea. They had a little spurt once on the Dodge Dakota pickup, and they shut that down real quickly. So 680,000 cars coming this way; 3,900 cars going from the United States to Korea.
I think for us to put up with this stuff is unbelievable, just unbelievable, in its ignorance. I would say to the Koreans, with respect to that piece of bilateral trade, if that is what you want to do on bilateral automobile trade, then, for a while, why don't you sell your cars in Zambia? Just ship them to Zambia, and we hope you have a good commercial success with them. Very soon, they would understand they need the American marketplace, and in exchange for needing the American marketplace, to have their marketplace wide open to us.
We know, those of us who will vote against this, and especially those who speak as I do, we know that the Washington Post, which will largely not run any op-ed pieces from those of us who hold our view, they and the other institutional thinkers on this will say: Well, do you know what you are? We have just heard you speak, and you basically ignore the world as it is. You are willing to reject the global economy, despite the fact that it exists and is there. And what you are is a xenophobic, isolationist stooge that simply is incapable of seeing over the horizon. You don't have the breadth of thought we do. And because you don't, you have a basic level of ignorance. That is how they treat people who do not buy into the jingoism of free trade.
This country used to be known as a country of shrewd Yankee traders. We were good. Our country wants us to succeed. We should want us to succeed. And we want to help others succeed with trade relationships that help lift others up, not push us down. But I have described already what we have gone through in the last century.
Unlike almost any other country on Earth, in the last century we decided some pretty basics things. And there are some people who had a tough time forcing these things to happen. I do not have the names of the people who were killed on the streets of America who were demanding the right for labor to be able to organize, but they died. Those who fought for a safe workplace, they suffered. Those who demanded a fair part of the income stream in this country for those who work for a living, they too paid the price for that. Those who fought, who said, belching chemicals into the air and water out of our factories, it is poisoning where we live, and you have to stop it--and they forced Congress to put an end to it--they paid a price for that as well.
But we did all that. It made sense. And now all of a sudden we see that does not matter. What matters is to be able to pole-vault over all of those regulations and go set up a factory in Guangzhou and produce that commodity and send it to Pittsburgh. And the consumer may get a $25 lower bill for that commodity. The consumer probably lost their job to the worker in the factory in Guangzhou, but they are able to pay slightly less for that commodity. That is not a bargain for our country. It is a way for our country to lose economic strength and to lose its way.
Now, let me just conclude by saying I have great hope for this country. If I did not have hope, I would not serve here in the Senate. We come here from a quiltwork of interests around the country--some big States and some small States, some big towns, some small towns, ivy league colleges and State schools. I come from a town of 300 people. I think it is a thrill every day to go to work. I think it is a special privilege to be here. If I did not have hope, I would not keep coming here, I would not have run for reelection last fall.
I still have hope that, in the long run, we will understand that the path we are on cannot be sustained and there is a better path. And it is not a path that is selfish. It is not demanding ``us or nothing.'' It is just a path that understands our first responsibility is to nurture and strengthen and protect this country of ours and to do what we think is necessary to give our kids opportunities. We need to leave this place better than the way we found it. And that is not what is going to happen unless we change course.
So I am on the floor of the Senate, not to preach but just to try to play a role in seeing if we cannot finally make a U-turn on these issues and head in the right direction, in a direction that says to our trading partners--China, Korea, Africa, South America, CAFTA, Central America--it says to them: Yes, we care about this. We want to help you. We want to work with you. But we do not want to do that at the expense of taking the American economy apart. We do not want to do that at the expense of saying to American families: We are busy helping somebody else down there, and so we do not have time to worry about your job.
If this country says to the people who make bicycles, ``You are paid way too much. You are paid $11 an hour plus benefits. We cannot afford that. Those jobs go to China,'' there is destined, in my judgment, to be nothing but hopelessness for those who come after us. I do not believe we can allow that to be the case.
I started by saying John Adams used to write back to his wife, when he was helping put this great country together, and asked her plaintively: Where is the leadership? Who will be the leaders? Where will the leadership come from in this country? And the answer in every generation in America has been to provide that leadership. And that question is a loud question in this country, again. It begs for an answer. Who will be the leaders? Where will the leadership come from to put this country back on track, to put its economy back on track, so 5 years, 10 years, and 25 years from now we can see something that gives us some confidence and some faith this is going to be a better place for our children.
Mr. President, I reserve the remainder of my time and yield the floor.
U.S.-Dominican Republic, Central American Free Trade Agreement
Mr. President, reserving the right to object, how much time remains on my allocation?
Mr. President, let me reserve 5 minutes of that as well.