National Defense Authorization Act For Fiscal Year 2005
Mr. President, I commend our colleagues from Oregon and North Dakota for this amendment. They have put their finger on a very significant problem in Iraq which is symptomatic. They would be the first to acknowledge this is a deeper…
Mr. President, I commend our colleagues from Oregon and North Dakota for this amendment. They have put their finger on a very significant problem in Iraq which is symptomatic. They would be the first to acknowledge this is a deeper problem. That is, we have reduced the number of our acquisition workforce.
The chairman of the committee and other members of the Armed Services Committee, including myself, every year for the past I don't know how many years have been to conference with the House of Representatives. They have tried and successfully achieved reduction to the acquisition workforce despite our opposition to those efforts. They have made major cuts in the acquisition workforce. They call it bureaucracy. We have fought against some of the cuts. We have been able to reduce the size of the cuts. Nonetheless, over time, there have been significant reductions in the acquisition workforce, including people to oversee contracts, which is what we are talking about here.
Our good friends from Oregon and North Dakota have identified a real problem. I congratulate the Senators for doing it. It is a problem reflective of a deeper problem we have now in the Defense Department.
There has been an amendment offered by Senator Byrd which we have accepted which gradually increases the size of the acquisition workforce. That would help get to the underlying systemic cause of this problem. We are going to go to conference, hoping we will be able to add some people to our acquisition workforce who can do the very oversight which is so essential to avoid the very conflicts of interest which the two Senators have identified.
The fact that the Byrd amendment has been adopted and we have added people on this side will put us in a better position, as well as this amendment, of course, of the Senators from Oregon and North Dakota.
I commend them. It will help us not simply to hopefully avoid this kind of absurd situation where nongovernmental employees are overseeing the operations of Government contracts, frequently with inherent conflicts of interest involved, but where we are going to be able to cure the cause of this situation as well on a long-term basis.
I commend them and thank them for the modifications they have made which I think will put us in a stronger position to defend this action in conference.
I move to reconsider the vote.
Madam President, has our modification to the second-degree amendment been sent to the desk yet? We will send up a modification to the second-degree amendment, and then I understand, as modified, Senator Allard will be accepting the second-degree.
Madam President, very briefly--and I thank Senator Allard and our staffs for working this out--we have expressed some real concerns in terms of the proliferation challenges in terms of the ballistic missile technology which is at issue.
Technology can be called defensive technology, but it also can be used offensively. The line between offensive and defensive missile technology is not a perfect line and, indeed, some of the technologies are both offensive and defensive. So it is important that the concerns we had expressed, and do express, in our second-degree amendment relative to the technology and the proliferation of these technologies be expressed in the underlying amendment, and that would remain.
What we have removed from our second-degree amendment is the elimination of what amounts to, I guess, that 30-day either goal or deadline,
which is waiveable by the Secretary of State. So what we have in our second-degree amendment now, as modified, is that we have left that 30- day goal in place--and Senator Allard had it in his amendment--but the efforts to try to address some of the proliferation concerns will remain in the second-degree amendment.
I understand, as modified, that Senator Allard is willing to accept the second-degree amendment.
I move to lay that motion on the table.
The motion to lay on the table was agreed to.
Madam President, first let me comment on what I think is the heart of the amendment the Senator from Connecticut has offered, and that has to do with the interrogation function and whether that ought to be performed by private contractors.
It seems to me abundantly clear that we cannot hire private contractors to perform a function that is inherently governmental, inherently sensitive, indeed inherently explosive, and on which there must be accountability, such as the interrogation of prisoners. We have treaty obligations. We have to live up to those treaty obligations, not because they are treaty obligations, although that should be enough, but also because the safety of our own troops is directly involved if we fail to abide by treaty obligations.
The stakes are absolutely huge and we must have people performing these functions who are accountable to us, where there is accountability.
Now the chairman has pointed out a problem with so-called subparagraph 1(b). I do think that is going to require additional exploration, and the Senator from Connecticut is perfectly happy to take a look at that additional exploration.
As the Senator from Connecticut points out, there may indeed already be law on the books that this simply would reinforce. If that is true, it is possible we may not even need this provision, but that is something which the exploration of law can tell us. We may not need, or the Senator from Connecticut more properly may not need, the provision 1(b) if the current law already addresses that issue. But that is something we ought to explore when we lay this amendment aside.
I will tell my friend from Virginia, the chairman of the committee, that the heart of this amendment, as I read it, is not section 1(b) but section 1(a). I think the Senator from Connecticut can speak most directly to that issue, but it is a question of whether we are going to contract out the interrogation function, where there is no accountability in something as grave as this procedure. Interrogating people who are captured in war has ramifications that are so significant to the security of our own troops, I think we must have the full accountability, which is only achievable when we have this performed by our own governmental operations, our own forces, our own governmental employees. So I think 1(a) is right on target.
It is possible, and I think there is another reason to lay this aside, that according to at least an article which I read over the weekend there already is an Army policy directive on this subject, when I read this article----
On the subject of (a).
I thank my chairman. This is what the article reads, and because I have a reprint of it I am not sure what paper I read it in, but this is the computer reprint of an article by Joe Brinkley, which says the following: That the use of private contractors as interrogators at Abu Ghraib and other prisons violates an Army policy that requires such jobs to be filled by Government employees because of the risk to ``national security,'' among other concerns, the Army acknowledged on Friday. An Army policy directive published in 2000 and still in effect today, the military said, classifies any job that involves the gathering and analysis of tactical intelligence as inherently governmental functions borrowed from private sector performance.
Now if we are going to set this amendment aside, there is an additional reason to do so. In addition to taking a look at whether 1(b) is necessary, the issue raised by the chairman, we should also take a look at what current Army policy is relative to the hiring of contractors to perform the interrogation function. I have tried in the last few minutes to get a copy of that Army policy, and I have been unable to do so in the last few minutes, so I could actually check it out myself. So
if this amendment is laid aside, I would seek to do exactly that.
One other comment, and that is this so-called Department of Interior. What is the Department of Interior doing here? Talk about lack of accountability. This is a contract which the Department of Interior entered into with private contractors to do interrogation. We talk about lack of responsibility, lack of accountability. The Army has lost control of its own contractors. These are not Army contractors, they are Department of Interior contractors. And why? Because they have engaged in a so-called offloading mechanism, where they use a contract of another agency to pay for the performance of functions which they, the Army, want.
That is an area which I would hope our committee would look into because, to me, we have laws against this kind of offloading. The subcommittee of which I am ranking member, the Permanent Subcommittee of Investigations, has had hearings on these offloading abuses. We have passed law to try to prohibit these offloading abuses. We have language, as a matter of fact, in this bill that would prevent some of the abuses the GSA was involved in in terms of offloading. If we had known about this particular problem, we would have included that in our committee consideration of this issue.
The Senator from Connecticut is pointing out something which is vitally important to us, and that is people who do interrogations on behalf of our Nation, relative to prisoners of war, must be accountable. We must be able to deter abuses of the rights of prisoners under treaties, or else when our people are captured, we are going to find we are in the same position as these prisoners. We need accountable people. That requires the people who are doing the interrogation be Government employees, at a minimum, hopefully uniformed employees, secondly.
We have two problems that are sort of parallel. We have this offloading problem where the Department of Interior contract is used to hire contractors. By the way, this also goes back in part to the reduction of the acquisition workforce. It goes back to the same issue we addressed on the prior subject. The chairman of our committee, of which the Presiding Officer is an extremely valued member, will remember the last conference, and the conference before that, and the conference before that with the House of Representatives. Every year we face this effort to reduce the amount of people who are working in our acquisition workforce. We are paying the price for those cuts.
We tried to stop those cuts, and we succeeded in at least reducing the scope of the cuts year after year, but as conferences work out, there are compromises on this. So there have been cuts, against our wishes, in the acquisition workforce. This again is a price we are paying for the reductions in the acquisition workforce which have occurred in prior years.
I commend the Senator from Connecticut for identifying an issue. We must make sure the interrogation of prisoners, detainees, or combatants, as he puts it in his amendment, at any U.S. military installation or any installation under the authority of the U.S. military or civilian personnel must be carried out by people who are responsible to us, who are part of the U.S. Government. If they are not in the military, or at least governmental employees, and not simply contractors, where the accountability is much less, where is the accountability for contractors? Where is the accountability? We passed a law recently which provides the criminal accountability if you can make out a crime, but it is very difficult at times to prove crimes.
I am happy to yield, but I encourage us to lay aside this amendment.
Would the Chairman add 10 minutes of discussion on the amendment prior to the vote?
Madam President, if that is out of the way, I will yield the floor----
I support the suggestion that the pending amendment of the Senator from Connecticut be laid aside to hear two issues.
I am sorry. I want to support the suggestion that the pending amendment of the Senator from Connecticut be laid aside so that two things can be carried out: One is that we look at section 1(b) relative to the combat language, both in terms of the points that the chairman has made and also in terms of the current law relative to combat. Also, that would give us an opportunity to check out this reported Army policy directive which has been referred to in this newspaper article to see what the current law is, at least what the current policy----
----regulations of the Army are relative to this particular issue. I think it is important we at least know that before we act on the amendment. I leave this up to our friend from Connecticut, but I think the heart of this amendment relates to the interrogation of the prisoners, rather than 1(b).
Will the Senator yield on this issue?
I very much support his effort to codify what should be the rule relative to the use of outside people when it comes to carrying out such a critical function as interrogating prisoners of war.
The same article says--this is the exceptions reference the Senator made--according to the public affairs officer, military commanders in Iraq, and I presume otherwise, ``retain the right to
make exceptions.'' That is the reference the Senator from Connecticut made.
The paragraph after that said the rule does not authorize exceptions involving collection or analysis of tactical intelligence. That is not in quotes. I think it really is important that we see exactly what that policy currently provides, not because it will take the place of a law--it will not, for the reasons given by the Senator from Connecticut. I think we must codify what is right in this area. Whether the policy that exists now is correct or not, we should put this into law because we have to make this point about how significant this is. That means the highest possible level of requirement, which is law--not policy, which can easily be changed or ignored, but law which cannot be ignored--is appropriate here.
I think for a lot of reasons we should try to take a look at what the exact wording of the policy is, not because it will substitute for what the Senator is doing, which is essential, but because we ought to know precisely what the current provisions are.
Madam President, I suggest the absence of a quorum.
Madam President, I ask unanimous consent that the order for the quorum call be dispensed with.
Mr. President, I know Senator Kennedy cosponsored this bill and has a major interest in this bill. We are trying to determine whether he wishes to speak at this point.
For the reasons given by our chairman, I gather this amendment will be laid aside until other colleagues who wish to have something to say on it have that opportunity. We are checking also with Senator Kennedy.
I don't know whether it is possible to enter into a time agreement. The chairman would have a better feel for that.
I am a strong supporter of this amendment and this effort of Senator Smith and Senator Kennedy. From my perspective, the sooner we vote on this, the better. It is long overdue that it become law. I commend the Senator on this amendment and Senator Kennedy for his tenacity as well. I hope the chairman can work out with other colleagues who want to speak on it in relation to some time agreement.
Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that the order for the quorum call be rescinded.
Mr. President, I think now the order of business is that we have 2 minutes, as I remember, equally divided on the Dodd amendment. Then we will proceed to a vote at 5:30.
I move to lay that motion on the table.
The motion to lay on the table was agreed to.
Mr. President, on behalf of Senator Byrd, I call up amendment No. 3344 which would modify the Report on the National Technology and Industrial Base required by section 841 of the bill.
Mr. President, I move to reconsider the vote.
Mr. President, that amendment has been cleared on this side.
I move to lay that motion on the table.
The motion to lay on the table was agreed to.
Amendment No. 3314
Mr. President, on behalf of Senator Landrieu, I call up amendment No. 3314 which would authorize the Army to convey the inactive Louisiana army ammunition plant to the State of Louisiana in return for an agreement that the State would guarantee that the Army and the Army Guard can continue to use it as a training site and the State would also assume cleanup responsibilities after 5 years.
The Senator is correct.
Mr. President, I move to reconsider the vote.
Mr. President, the amendment has been cleared on this side.
I move to lay that motion on the table.
The motion to lay on the table was agreed to.
Mr. President, on behalf of Senator Kennedy, I call up amendment No. 3257 which would codify certain requirements for public- private competition for the performance of the Department of Defense functions, and also on behalf of Senator Kennedy I send a modification to the desk.
Mr. President, I move to reconsider the vote.
Mr. President, the amendment has been cleared on this side. I am a proud cosponsor of this amendment.
I move to lay that motion on the table.
The motion to lay on the table was agreed to.
Amendment No. 3340
Mr. President, on behalf of myself and Senator Feinstein, I call up amendment No. 3340 which would give authority to the Navy to settle a claim related to property associated with a former naval hospital in Oakland. This settlement has been agreed to by, I guess, all of the parties.
Mr. President, I move to reconsider the vote.
The amendment has been cleared and very strongly cosponsored by many Members on this side of the aisle, as well as I think probably everyone if they had the opportunity which they can, of course, do at a later time.
I move to lay that motion on the table.
The motion to lay on the table was agreed to.
Amendment No. 3221
The amendment has been cleared on this side.
On behalf of Senator Bill Nelson, I call up amendment No. 3376, which will set forth the sense of the Congress that the Secretary of Defense should provide support for reduced launch costs and enhanced technical capabilities at space launch ranges through additional safety systems, and on behalf of Senator Nelson I send a modification to the desk and ask that the modification be considered.
I move to reconsider the vote.
The amendment has been cleared on this side.
Mr. President, on behalf of Senator Sarbanes, I call up amendment No. 3296, which would grant a Federal charter to the Korean War Veterans Association, Incorporated.
I move to reconsider the vote.
Mr. President, on behalf of Senator Harkin, I call up amendment No. 3316, which expresses a sense of the Senate that the Secretary of Defense should develop appropriate methods of oversight of the American forces radio and television service system to ensure presentation of all sides of important public questions, and on behalf of Senator Harkin, I send a modification to the desk and ask unanimous consent the modification be agreed to.
I move to reconsider the vote.
The amendment has been cleared.
The amendment has been cleared on this side.
I move to lay that motion on the table.
The motion to lay on the table was agreed to.
Amendment No. 3307
Mr. President, I call up an amendment on behalf of Senator Harry Reid. I believe it is No. 3307.
Mr. President, this amendment provides for parallel compensation for our POWS from the first gulf war. I think the language is at the desk.
Mr. President, let me add my thanks to the Senator from Nevada for, as always, looking out for the interests of our troops, the men and women in the Armed Forces. Where it is necessary to make up for failures, he is the first to find ways to do that. It is a very important function of this Senate. I commend the Senator.
I ask to be added, also, as a cosponsor.
I move to lay that motion on the table.
The motion to lay on the table was agreed to.