Mr. President, reserving the right to object. Parliamentary inquiry. Could I ask how much time the distinguished Senator from California desires? My personal belief is we ought to let her go ahead, and I would encourage my colleague to do…
Mr. President, reserving the right to object.
Parliamentary inquiry.
Could I ask how much time the distinguished Senator from California desires?
My personal belief is we ought to let her go ahead, and I would encourage my colleague to do that.
I ask unanimous consent that we----
Would the Senator add that I be given time?
I add to that, when the distinguished Senator from California is finished I would be granted the floor for my remarks.
I have no idea.
I do not have an exact time, but I would hope not too long.
I would estimate up to an hour.
Then I will ask for the floor when the distinguished Senator from Vermont ends his remarks.
Who is trying to accommodate the Senator from Vermont.
I have a suggestion. Why does not the distinguished Senator end his speech and we will go to the distinguished Senator from California before me, and then I will try to be less than an hour?
He spoke for half an hour.
Reserving my right to object, Mr. President, it is not unusual to have multiple matters heard by the Senate. It is certainly not unusual to have cloture votes on judges, especially under the current situation. I would be happy to quit debating General Pryor tonight, even though there has been probably close to an hour of the Senate's time utilized on this debate, and just go to the cloture vote tomorrow, quit playing around with the Energy bill that we know is being slow-walked, and try to finish the Energy bill before the end of this week.
There is no excuse for not having a cloture vote on Judge Pryor or Judge Kuhl on Friday.
People have a right to schedule the judge.
This is the first time we have ever----
I yield to the distinguished Senator from California, and I intend to take the floor as soon as she is through.
You cannot object.
I ask unanimous consent that the distinguished Senator from California be recognized for 15 minutes.
Mr. President, let me take the floor. I am going to yield the floor in just a second.
I expect the distinguished Senator from California to be recognized so she can take 15 minutes. Then I am going to warn the Senate, right now, the minute she is through, I want the floor back, and I have a right to have it as the leader on the majority side. Am I right, parliamentarily?
I didn't do that.
Mr. President, I compliment the distinguished Senator from California as well. I feel very deeply toward her. I think she is a wonderful person, and I think she is a fine Senator who works very hard on the Judiciary Committee. And I appreciate her kind remarks about me.
Mr. President, let me make something clear. I keep hearing that we are going to vote on judges. Well, I certainly wish that were the case. What we are talking about is a cloture vote tomorrow, and one on Friday. It is not unusual at all, in fact it is a matter of course, for the Senate to double track various items in the interests of the body to keep on top of matters.
The two trade bills are extremely important for this country, with two of our greatest allies and supporters, Chile and Singapore. It needs to be done. There is no reason to have hours of debate on it. There are some hard feelings about it, and so forth, but it can be done.
We could have debated this in the hour before the cloture vote, which is what the rule calls for. If we invoke cloture, there will be ample opportunity to devote time to the total debate on General Pryor.
But now let me just make another point or two. The distinguished Senator from California is very upset at him because he actually took up to the Supreme Court an issue on the Violence Against Women Act. She takes great umbrage at that. Unfortunately, he won. So to indicate that he may be outside the mainstream or somebody who should not be supported because he wins in front of the Supreme Court--and almost everything they criticize, as far as Supreme Court matters are concerned, he has won on, until this last term when he lost on a couple of issues. And in every case he followed what he believed the law was regardless of his own personal beliefs. By the way, I am one of the coauthors in the Congress of the Violence Against Women Act.
So to criticize him for something that the Supreme Court agrees with him on gives an indication who is outside the mainstream. It isn't General Pryor. And there is case after case after case where he wins that has been criticized by our colleagues over there as though somehow or other he has been off the charts when it comes to the law. He has been on the charts. I admit, he has lost some, too. But I don't know of anybody who has taken multiple cases to the Supreme Court who has won everything. I know a few who have had pretty good records--and he has one of the better records as an attorney general in this country.
My Democratic colleagues assert, in laundry list format, that General Pryor is basically against everything they are for. He is ``out of the mainstream.'' We hear that over and over again. Pryor is against civil rights, disability rights, minorities and women themselves, the environment--the whole thing, presumably, and of course--abortion rights.
I am paraphrasing just one Democratic Senator's statement during the markup on July 23, 2003, but it is a fair representation of the types of assertions against General Pryor that are designed not to debate his fitness for the Federal bench but, rather, to strangle debate before it begins. To paint this excellent nominee as so ``extreme'' as to be not worth discussing.
By the way, we did not bring this debate up tonight. I did not want to stand here tonight and answer these so-called allegations. My friends on the other side did. They are the ones who interrupted the Energy bill, which is being slow-walked. And we all understand that--as almost everything has been this year.
These are what you call obstructionist tactics. And that is what is going on here. For them to come out here on the Senate floor and act like, well, we are interrupting the energy debate--it is almost more than I can take.
This energy debate is very important. It should be over. And I would be happy to end it right now, have the cloture vote tomorrow. I will even give up the hour before cloture, if they want to, to keep working on the Energy bill. But, no, that is not what they are doing. This is all a slow-walk to try to make this Congress look as if it isn't a good one, even though, in spite of these slow-walks, we have done bill after bill after bill, some of them extremely important pieces of legislation.
Let me provide you with a succinct but very different, and much more realistic picture of General Pryor.
General Pryor has been criticized as insensitive to the rights of the disabled because he argued in the Garrett case that the Americans with Disabilities Act could not, under section 5 of the 14th amendment, validly abrogate States' 11th amendment immunity and authorize money damage suits against States in Federal court.
But the Supreme Court agreed with General Pryor. He is being criticized by others on the Senate floor for cases that he has won in the Supreme Court.
He has also been criticized as insensitive to age-based discrimination because he and a bipartisan group of 23 other State attorneys general--23 other bipartisan State attorneys general--argued in the Kimel v. Florida Board of Regents case that the provision of the Age Discrimination in Employment Act that allowed money damage suits against States in Federal courts was invalid under the 11th amendment, something that they should have argued because it is an important issue.
But, again, the Supreme Court agreed with General Pryor. He is being criticized for winning cases in the Supreme Court as though he is the one who is out of the mainstream. I don't think it takes any brains to realize who is out of the mainstream. It is not General Pryor.
And we have heard criticism that he is insensitive to women's rights because he argued in the case of U.S. v. Morrison that neither the commerce clause nor the 14th amendment provided Congress with the authority to enact one civil remedies provision of the Violence Against Women Act. But the Supreme Court agreed with him again.
Further, General Pryor has been criticized as anti-environment because of his argument in Solid Waste Agency of Northern Cook County that the Army Corps of Engineers did not have the authority, under the Federal Clean Water Act, to exercise Federal jurisdiction over entirely intrastate bodies of water--in this case, an abandoned gravel pit.
He was arguing for his State, which is what attorneys general are obligated to do. He even urged the Court not to reach the issue of whether the Commerce Clause allowed Congress to regulate entirely intrastate bodies of water. The Court did not reach the Commerce Clause issue and again agreed with General Pryor's statutory interpretation argument.
So I guess those who oppose Pryor are saying when the Supreme Court agrees with you that an environmental statute should be interpreted in accordance with its actual language, rather than expanded through bureaucratic fiat, that makes you extreme
and anti-environment, especially when you win the case in front of the Supreme Court. Talk about turning the world upside down.
General Pryor has even been criticized as insensitive to civil rights concerns because of his argument in Alexander v. Sandoval that there is no private right of action under title VI of the Federal Civil Rights Act to challenge Alabama's policy of issuing drivers' licenses only to English speakers--a policy that I understand is no longer in effect. Once again, the Supreme Court agreed with his argument, holding that Congress, not Federal courts, should create causes of action to enforce Federal laws. That proposition should not be controversial, nor should supporting it be held against General Pryor, who again won in the Supreme Court.
Finally, let me just give one more example. The Supreme Court, including Justice Souter, agreed with General Pryor's argument in the Scheidler v. NOW case that Federal antiracketeering laws could not properly be applied to pro-life protest groups who admittedly had not engaged in any activities covered by those laws with respect to the targets of their protests. So while General Pryor may have criticized Justice Souter, they do not always disagree when it comes down to interpreting the law.
Let me say this. A nominee is not an extremist--or should I put the word ``extremist'' in quotes because it seems to be a special word that is used so often by our colleagues--a nominee is not an extremist when the positions he has taken have been consistently supported by Supreme Court majorities. We know who the extremists are, and it isn't General Pryor.
We will hear more about these cases, and I'm not saying Bill Pryor has won all of these arguments at the Supreme Court. Not even the best lawyers can win them all, and he did lose a couple in this last session. But to say that Bill Pryor is ``out of the mainstream,'' when he has been such a successful advocate for his State in the Nation's highest Court, is plainly wrong.
Anybody who makes that argument should think twice before they make that type of argument.
We are in the middle of a slow walk here, trying to make the Senate look bad--not by Republicans but by the other side. Frankly, to complain about double-tracking important things like a circuit court of appeals judgeship, the third branch of Government in our society, I think is hitting a little bit below the belt.
It is certainly not unusual for cloture votes on judgeship nominees when the other side is filibustering for the first time in history Federal judicial nominees. I made the mistake of saying the Fortas nomination was the only filibuster up until now. I was wrong. I was corrected by none other than former Senator Robert Griffin who led the fight against Fortas. He said: We weren't filibustering, and they knew it. They knew we had the votes to beat them up and down and they are the ones who called for the cloture vote, which they barely won. They only had 45 votes, and there were 12 who weren't there, many of whom were going to vote against Fortas for justifiable reasons.
So these filibusters going on now are the only ones we've ever had in the Senate. My colleagues on the other side are fond of saying: There have been 140 Bush judges confirmed by us and only two have been filibustered. That is two too many. Constitutionally, that is two too many. One is one too many. I have to admit there were a few on our side during the Clinton years who wanted to filibuster some of those judges. I personally stopped them with the help of the leadership and others who thought it through that we should not be filibustering judges. It is the wrong thing to do. It should not be done, but it is being done here.
If the Senator will just wait for a few more minutes, I want to make a point on Rule 4. For the life of me, I can't understand how anybody reading the Judiciary Committee's Rule 4 would interpret it any differently than the way I did. I was surprised to see my comments during the Bill Lan Lee nomination used against me. What happened there was, I was Chairman. We had the votes to stop the nomination. The Democrats didn't want us to stop the nomination because it would have been embarrassing and might have made it more difficult for them to recess-appoint Lee, who I would have supported for any other job in Government but not that one. Because I knew he would get there and he would use the power of the civil rights office to bring litigation against communities, municipalities who would have to give in rather than spend millions of dollars in defense fees and accept full scale racial quotas. My fears were confirmed. Because they recess-appointed him and he did bring that kind of litigation.
But with the Lee nomination, the Democrats started a filibuster of their own nominee. There was no reason for them to make any arguments. I would have given them a vote up or down right there. They started the filibuster. I, in graciousness, agreed not to have a vote. I have to admit I myself was in error by making some of the statements I did because I didn't realize the importance of this, nor had I even looked at Rule 4. But let's look at this Rule.
It says: ``The chairman shall entertain. . . .'' That means this is a rule that forces the chairman to entertain a nondebatable motion to bring a matter before the committee to a vote. It is a way of forcing the chairman to give a vote that you could not otherwise give if the chairman decided not to do it.
``The chairman shall entertain a nondebatable motion to bring a matter before the committee to a vote if there is objection to bringing the matter to a vote without further debate''--a rollcall vote, in other words. If the chairman refuses, they can then demand a rollcall vote of the committee to be taken. It is nondebatable. It has to happen. And ``debate shall be terminated if the motion to bring the matter to a vote without further debate passes with 10 votes in the affirmative, one of which must be cast by the minority.''
Anybody with brains can read that and say: That is a rule that forces a recalcitrant chairman to have to call a vote. But any competent person reading that can also conclude, as have I, having consulted with the two Parliamentarians beforehand, that a chairman cannot be foreclosed from his right to call a vote. Because if that were the rule, that means the minority would always control whether there would ever be a vote on a judge. That can't possibly be the rule, though that is what Democrats now are trying to say it is, with regard to the Committee's vote on General Pryor.
We are all well aware by now that Democrats invoked the Judiciary Committee's rule 4 to try to block a committee vote on General Pryor's nomination. Their interpretation of this rule was and is simply incorrect, and let me explain why.
Rule 4, entitled ``Bringing a Matter to a Vote,'' was clearly intended to serve as a tool by which a determined majority of the committee could force a recalcitrant chairman to bring a matter to vote. In fact, the rule provides, ``The Chairman shall entertain a non- debatable motion to bring a matter before the Committee to a vote.'' On July 23, there was no motion to bring a matter before the committee to a vote. In fact, there was an objection to voting, which I overruled. Thus, on its face, rule 4 was inapplicable to the Pryor nomination.
If we followed the interpretation that Democratic members of the committee urged, it would mean that the committee minority would essentially control the committee's agenda. Essentially, the committee's chairman, on behalf of the majority, could not bring any nomination or piece of legislation to a vote without the affirmative vote of at least one member of the minority. So the chairman would have no right to call for a vote--the minority could restrict that right at their discretion.
No chairman would suffer such limitations on his power. The limitation that exists in rule 4 as properly interpreted is entirely reasonable: that all members of the committee's majority, plus one minority member, can force the committee to have a vote over the objection of the chairman--who, in that case, clearly would not be representing his committee's majority. Rule 4 does not, as Democrats, would currently, expediently, have it allow the minority to prevent a vote. Rule 4
does not authorize filibusters in the Judiciary Committee.
Despite claims to the contrary, there has been no inconsistency in the interpretation of this rule. During the Clinton administration, in an effort to prevent the defeat in committee of a controversial Justice Department nominee and spare both committee Democrats and the administration considerable embarrassment, I chose not to exercise the inherent power that I and all committee chairmen have to bring a matter to a vote. President Clinton ultimately made a recess appointment of the nominee. In retrospect, my graciousness to the other side, and my reliance on rule 4 to accomplish this was admittedly not the best course of action. I nevertheless believe that I had the power to bring that matter to a vote, and that I used the discretion of the chairman to decide not to do so.
In short, there was no violation of committee rules or process in bringing the Pryor nomination to a vote on July 23, and any argument to the contrary was merely a last-ditch effort to prevent the full Senate from considering it.
Unfortunately, that effort continues, in a manner equally offensive to the ultimate rules that govern the Senate, the U.S. Constitution.
The fact is, this was the fifth markup that General Pryor was on, having had his confirmation hearing on June 11. And there were continual Democratic efforts to try and thwart these markups every time. I went along with a number of those efforts just out of graciousness. But on July 23 everybody knew we were going to vote because at the prior markup they invoked the two-hour rule, the Democrats did, so that we couldn't possibly, during the time the Senate was in session, vote on Mr. Pryor.
I said: Well, then we will meet after the Senate goes out, which would get around the two-hour rule. That meant about 9 o'clock at night that night, the Thursday before we finally voted. Everybody knew I had the votes. Everybody knew I was going to go ahead. We gave them all day to resolve any problems they had in this so-called ``investigation'' which is as phony as any investigation I have ever seen. By the time we got ready, nobody told me about this, but by the time we got ready for the vote or for the Senate to go out of session and for us to meet--and we worked all day to make sure we would have a quorum--I was informed that there was a personal exigency that existed, a legitimate personal exigency, that was known about earlier in the day, and I agreed to not continue the markup.
I put it over then until the next Wednesday, a full week, and said: Get the staffs together, interview the four witnesses you want to, interview General Pryor in the process, but next Wednesday we are going to vote. There have been comments that our staff stalled that. That is not true. I believe the distinguished Senator from Massachusetts tried to make that point. That is not true.
As a matter of fact, the Democrats' staff refused to interview or ask questions of Mr. Pryor who could have easily answered them all, and would have, and in fact already had answered all of these questions at his hearing and in writing. It was a phony ``gotcha'' type of a situation which Democrats on the Judiciary Committee are putting nominees through.
Let me talk about the religious problem. I am getting a little tired of this. The outside groups have been outrageous with the smears they have brought upon Republican judicial nominees. If you made one mistake in your life or what they perceive to be a mistake, you are going to be smeared because of it. That perceived mistake is going to be enough for these groups to try to ruin your whole career. The tactics used against Judge Kuhl are a perfect illustration. Her whole career she has had the support of Democratic and Republican judges and everybody else in California who really counts, it seems to me, as far as judges are concerned. They found one thing they can beat into the ground, they think. I don't think even that is valid. I think we can rebut that case. And yet they are going to stop this brilliant woman who has a well-qualified rating, their gold standard, from the American Bar Association.
What is particularly offensive is what the outside groups have done against some of our nominees because of religious beliefs. By the way, throughout the extensive, lengthy, one-of-a-kind hearing on Judge Pryor, there were consistent questions about his deeply held beliefs. This has caused a lot of people to become very upset.
I am sorry. I am happy to yield for a question without losing my right to the floor.
At least in one instance over and over it was on the issue of abortion. Several Democrats asked questions about that.
First, I have seen the letter dated July 30, 2003, which I believe the Senator has put into the Record. The first time I have seen it is tonight.
Right. I am concerned about this. I know some of these outside groups have been doing this regularly. I personally do not believe the distinguished Senator from California is--and I hope none of the other Democrat Senators on the committee are--against Mr. Pryor because of his religious beliefs. But I have to admit that people all over the country have been calling me and talking to me and saying, how could it be anything else? People are drawing that conclusion, and I will be honest with you, I am concerned about it.
There is no question about that. We all have to agree that our Constitution states no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office of public trust in the United States. I don't believe any Senator would intentionally impose a religious test on the President's judicial nominees. I do not think any Senators are guilty of anti-religious bias. However, I am deeply concerned that some are indirectly putting at issue the religious beliefs of several judicial nominees.
I will give you one illustration. During the Pryor hearing, General Pryor's religion was an issue--and this is why I have raised it, which I have never done before. One Senator accused General Pryor during the hearing of ``asserting an agenda of your own, a religious belief of your own.'' In his opening statement, another Senator stated:
``In General Pryor's case, his beliefs are so well known,
so deeply held that it is very hard to believe that they are
not going to deeply influence the way he comes about saying
`I will follow the law,' and that would be true of anybody
who had very deeply held views.''
The only deeply held views that I know outside of belief in
the law would be his own personal religious beliefs. I will
just say this on another point. On the subject of Roe v.
Wade, Senator Schumer said, ``I for one believe that a judge
can be pro-life, yet be fair, balanced, and uphold a woman's
right to choose. But for a justice to set aside his or her
personal views, the commitment to the rule of law must
clearly supersede his or her personal agenda. . . . But based
on the comments Attorney General Pryor has made on the
subject, I have some real concerns that he cannot because he
feels these views so deeply and so passionately.''
I don't know how you read it any other way.
Another Senator told General Pryor:
I think the very legitimate issue at question with your
nomination is whether you have an agenda, and that many of
the positions you have taken do not reflect just an advocacy,
but a very deeply held view and a philosophy, which you are
entitled to have, but you are also not entitled to get
everyone's vote.
As you know, General Pryor is openly pro-life.
Yes. I am so advised. I have studied the Catholic faith and I respect it deeply, as I do all religions.
I cannot speak to that. All I can say is that I will take the Senator's statement at face value, as I know he is a practicing member of the Catholic faith, and I respect him for that. I know he is very sincere, and I know he has even written about it. But I am concerned.
Three of the people we have been told will be filibustered are traditional pro-life, Catholic conservatives. Certainly, Pryor is one of them. Kuhl is another. Holmes is another. It is a matter of great concern. I have to say that these inside-the-Beltway outside groups will use anything; they will distort a person's record. It is abysmal what they are doing, and they are well heeled to the tune of millions of dollars, which they spend spreading this bile all over the Senate. Unfortunately, I believe there are some in this body who do not decry what they are doing.
I will be happy to yield for another question without losing my right to the floor.
I think there are all kinds of examples. Let me go through a few, if I can. Hopefully, this will be helpful in what the good Senator has asked for.
General Pryor's record speaks with far more authority and with much greater eloquence than the fulminations against him. His record of enforcing the Supreme Court dictates on abortion is unquestioned. He has enforced them all. Despite criticizing them all as a traditional pro-life, Catholic conservative, he has criticized abortion but he has upheld the law.
Although he has been attacked for his federalism arguments before the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court sided with him in most of those cases. Arguing that Congress does not have the power that it has assumed through certain legislative acts is not activist or radical. It is principled, entirely consistent with our constitutional separation of powers, and it is General Pryor's duty as State attorney general.
In all the federalism cases he has argued, he advocated that only certain portions of Federal laws were unconstitutional. In all cases, remedies remained available for aggrieved parties or the Federal Government. I cited some of these cases earlier.
Let me give another illustration. His critics have also attempted to portray him as an official without the respect for the separation of church and State. Again, it is simply beyond dispute that his record proves his repeated ability to enforce the law regardless of his strong personal religious beliefs.
In an effort to defeat challenges to school prayer and the display of the Ten Commandments in the Alabama Supreme Court, both the government that appointed General Pryor and Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore urged General Pryor to argue that the Bill of Rights does not apply to the States.
General Pryor refused, even though his personal beliefs were different, and he argued the case on much narrower grounds despite his own deeply held Catholic faith and personal support for both of those issues.
General Pryor has always been attacked for his statements urging modification or repeal of section 5 of the Voting Rights Act. However, despite General Pryor's well-documented concerns about section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, he has vigorously enforced all provisions of the act. He successfully defended before the Supreme Court several majority-minority voting districts approved under section 5 from a challenge by a group of white Alabama voters. He feels deeply about these issues.
He also issued an opinion that the use of stickers to replace one candidate's name for another on a ballot requires preclearance under section 5. Again, General Pryor enforced the law despite its conflicts with his beliefs.
Despite the distortions, half-truths, and outright falsehoods we have heard about him from the usual leftist inside-the-Beltway interest groups, General Pryor is a diligent, honorable, faithful man whose loyalties as a public servant have been to the law and its impartial administration.
He has told us under oath he will continue to follow the law, just as he has demonstrated in his distinguished career in Alabama. We should be proud to give his nomination an up-or-down vote.
Throughout his hearing, it was one question after another on abortion--one question after another--and he made it clear that as much as he thinks that the outcome of the case of Roe v. Wade is an abomination, because it has resulted in the death of millions of unborn children--and he was very straightforward about it, very honest about it, and was complimented by my colleagues for his honesty, yet they will not accept his honesty on this topic--he said he would enforce Roe v. Wade, which is the law.
After the Supreme Court's decision in Stenberg v. Carhart, he upheld that law by ordering state officials not to enforce the conflicting Alabama partial-birth abortion law. Earlier, he had enforced Alabama's partial-birth abortion law narrowly, to ensure consistency with Supreme Court's dictates in Planned Parenthood v. Casey. Even though he disagrees violently with both of those cases from a personal religious standpoint, but he enforced and upheld those laws, in the face of criticism from many of his conservative friends in Alabama.
Let me read one other item. At his hearing, I asked him this question:
So even though you disagree with Roe v. Wade, you would act
in accordance with Roe v. Wade on the Eleventh Circuit Court
of Appeals?
This was his answer:
Mr. Pryor. Even though I strongly disagree with Roe v.
Wade, I have acted in accordance with it as attorney general
and would continue to do so as a Court of Appeals judge.
Chairman Hatch. Can we rely on that?
Mr. Pryor. You can take it to the bank, Mr. Chairman.
To be honest with you, that is the way he is, and he is being condemned for that.
I have to say that some of my colleagues on the other side have become tremendously annoyed and hurt by the issue of religion being brought up in this matter, but the attacks on personal beliefs came originally from these inside-the-Beltway groups. They are well heeled, with money coming out of their ears, hiring all kinds of far left liberal lawyers to make these smear attempts and, frankly, that is what is distorting this whole process.
I suggest to my friends on the other side, they are going to have to start some day standing up to these people, but they do not seem to be able to do it.
Frankly, during the Clinton years, I stood up to some of the right wing groups that were occasionally trying to distort somebody's record. We did not see anywhere near what we are seeing today but I stood up. I am not asking them to do something I did not do.
I will be glad to yield without losing my right to the floor.
Mr. President, as my colleague knows, I had to stand up to some in my own caucus. Not many. There were some, one or two, who wanted to filibuster President Clinton's nominees. As the Senator will recall, I stood up to that and said we are not going to filibuster judicial nominees. It is not right, and I believe it is constitutionally unsound.
Some of the outside groups were sincere but they wanted to--I believed them to be sincere but wrong--distort some of these matters, and I refused to allow them to do it. They demanded to testify in a variety of cases, and I told them no, we are not going to denigrate the judicial process with that type of stuff.
I am happy to yield without losing my right to the floor.
Well, the Senator is right.
He is a very serious practicing Catholic. He despises Roe v. Wade. He makes very strong and principled arguments against it. He did not mince any words when he was asked, Did you call it an abomination? And he said: Yes, I did, sir.
When they asked why, he said he called it an abomination because, words to the effect, he believes that it led to the deaths of millions of unborn children. Yet when it came down to enforcing the law on partial-birth abortion, that he despises, he enforced the law, and he directed his prosecutors in the State to do likewise.
I do not know whether we can find any better people than that. There are a lot of politicians who have been attorneys general who I do not think would have done that in the face of their personal beliefs, but he did because he is dedicated to the law. He knows if one does not uphold the law, even if they disagree with it, it would not be long until we would not have any laws. The Constitution would go itself, and he understands that. He is a brilliant man, graduated magna cum laude from Tulane, which is a fine law school, and was editor in chief of the Law Review, something that very few people have the privilege of doing, and that is because he was one of the best students in his class.
Frankly, he has more than shown an aptitude to the law and an ability to follow the law.
Without losing my right to the floor, I will be happy to yield.
That is exactly right. He took a lot of flack for it and he believed the way they did, but he also made it clear that that is the law and that he was going to follow it. He followed it as an elected political official.
Now, if he can follow the law impartially as an elected political official, imagine the honor he would bring to the bench, where it's his job to be impartial. He did not have to do it as an elected political official, although I would not have respected him had he not, but as a judge, I think we have more than ample evidence that this man would follow the law regardless of his personal beliefs. Yet he has been smeared by the outside groups on his personal beliefs. It is just that simple.
Without losing my right to the floor.
I do agree with that. The Senator knows Bill Pryor better than anybody. He worked for the distinguished Senator when he was attorney general. I am absolutely amazed at how many Democrats and people of diversity and others in Alabama are supportive of him. The people who knew him best are the people who support him. The people of Alabama know him best. Yet we are going to second-guess that, for political reasons?
I am happy to yield, without losing my right to the floor.
Well, I believe it can be, and I believe there is some from the outside groups. I do not think there is any question. I would not want to attribute that to any of my colleagues on the Judiciary Committee, although I have to admit this issue of abortion is becoming a litmus test issue to Democrats, that is pro-abortion. I think that is wrong. I remember what the media did to Republicans during the Reagan administration, continually trying to say there was a litmus test. I know there was not because the person who vetted all the judges is a former staffer of mine who is now on the Michigan Supreme Court. I know it is not being done by this administration. But literally, Democrats are making abortion a litmus test issue.
The Democrats are fond of saying, yes, but we have passed all kinds of Bush judges, 140 of them so far. Well, they cannot stop them all. So they selectively pick people like General Pryor who clearly has very strongly held views but who clearly has abided by the law. They ignore that he abided by the law and attack him on his strongly held views. In large measure, it comes down to the issue of abortion because he differs with them on the policy issue of abortion.
Without losing my right to the floor.
I just saw it tonight, so I am familiar. I have not read it in detail, but I am familiar with it.
This is the first time I have seen this letter. To him, this is a very important issue. The views he expresses are drawn from what he's heard at the hearing and the markup. Reasonable people can draw these conclusions from the markup, from the debate.
It is coming down to where abortion is the be-all and end-all issue to my colleagues on the other side. Sure, they cannot vote against everyone. I don't know how many of these people are pro-life or pro- choice. I never ask anyone that.
The fact is, I can see why people are drawing this conclusion. I will give a
few other reasons they are drawing that conclusion before we are through here tonight.
This article reads in part:
I have never met Mr. Pryor, but his political life is a
matter of public record. He has served the State of Alabama
with distinction, enforcing its laws and court decisions
fairly and consistently. This is why President Bush nominated
him to the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, and why the
Senate Judiciary Committee approved him last Wednesday for
consideration by the full Senate.
But the committee debate on Pryor was ugly, and the vote to
advance his nomination split exactly along party lines. Why?
Because Mr. Pryor believes that Catholic teaching about the
sanctity of life is true; that the 1973 Supreme Court Roe v.
Wade decision was a poorly reasoned mistake; and that
abortion is wrong in all cases, even rape and incest. As a
result, Americans were treated to the bizarre spectacle of
non-Catholic Senators Orrin Hatch and Jeff Sessions defending
Mr. Pryor's constitutionally protected religious rights to
Mr. Pryor's critics, including Senator Richard Durbin, an
``abortion-rights'' Catholic.
He concludes with:
Some things change, and some things don't. The bias against
``papism'' is alive and well in America. It just has a
different address. But at least some people in Alabama now
know where he local Catholic church is--and where she
stands--even if some people in Washington apparently don't.
I ask the Senator from Utah if he has seen that article.
I had not seen it before tonight, that I was aware of. I had been told the Catholic bishop had written this article. I can see why he has drawn this conclusion. I can see why anyone would.
I hear the moaning and groaning and scheming, but I happen to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I belong to the only church in the history of this country that had an extermination order out against it, where our people were brutally murdered and driven from State to State leaving trails of blood.
I don't like religious discrimination in any way. I can see why people are drawing these conclusions from this debate. I can see why people draw such conclusions when you start attacking a man because he has deeply held beliefs. Earlier, I read one statement from Pryor's hearing, questioning his religious beliefs. It was made; and anyone with brains would say, what are his deeply held beliefs? He is a traditional pro-life Catholic conservative. And I guess that is not a good thing to be if you're before this body seeking confirmation to the federal bench.
I think it is a good thing to be. I don't think it is bad to be a liberal pro-life Catholic. I think it is important to live your religion, regardless of what religious persuasion you are. I understand religious discrimination. The name of my church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, yet I am unacceptable in certain groups because they don't think we are Christians. I will match my Christianity up against anyone's. I read the Bible all the time. I try to read it from beginning to end every year. I pretty well do that. It is the greatest book in the world. And it is the greatest literature. But I understand discrimination. Some people will not handle the music I write because they don't think I am Christian. I don't mean to bring that up here except that it applies. I understand that. I understand why people feel this way. If my colleagues on the other side don't understand it, I say shame on them.
When abortion becomes the be-all and end-all in the judicial nomination process--which is what these outside groups, almost every one of them, are committed to on the Democratic side--it is a serious issue. There are serious decent people on both sides of that issue. But when it becomes the be-all and end-all litmus test whether a person can serve--that's wrong. And don't give me the argument we have approved all kinds of people who may be pro-life. Of course, Members cannot vote against everybody.
But we are filibustering, for the first time in history, good people, judicial nominations to the Federal courts of the United States of America, for the first time in history. I know a lot of it comes down to abortion. I did not let that happen when I was chairman during the Clinton years. I don't think it should happen right now, especially somebody such as Pryor who has a reputation for obeying and standing up for the law even though he disagrees with it.
As a politician he has that reputation. I imagine if he can do it as a politician, he can do it and we can take his word on it that he would abide by the law and sustain the law of the land as a judge. Yet the principal argument against him is that he won't enforce the law regarding abortion. There are
other arguments used, all of which are false, in my opinion. This abortion issue is becoming the be-all and end-all issue for Democrats in the Senate. There is always somebody who wants to enforce an abortion litmus test, but we stopped it on our side. It ought to be stopped on their side.
The practical application.
If my colleague will stay a few minutes longer, because I want to make one more point in this area and it needs to be made--a couple maybe.
I believe the Senator has put the letters and op-ed piece from the Catholic Leader into the Record.
I also ask unanimous consent to have printed in the Record--because these are people who are good people writing these letters. And they are just starting. An avalanche is coming. This is from the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, July 23:
Dear Senator Hatch: We write to you with regard to the
Judiciary Committee's consideration of the nomination of
William Pryor, the current Attorney General of the State of
Alabama, to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh
Circuit.
The Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America, the
nation's largest Orthodox Jewish umbrella organization
representing nearly 1,000 congregations nationwide, is a non-
partisan, religious organization and--like most other
organizations in the American Jewish community--it has been
the UOJCA's longstanding policy neither to endorse nor oppose
judicial nominees in the confirmation process. However, to
our dismay, we have witnessed several of our community's
organizations deviate from this shared policy in recent weeks
and oppose the confirmation of Mr. Pryor.
Moreover, we are profoundly troubled by the manner in which
this opposition has been framed. We thus feel compelled,
unlike our fellow communal organizations, to remain faithful
to our non-endorsement policy but express our view on a
critical issue that has been raised in connection with this
nomination--Mr. Pryor's personal religious faith and his
capacity to serve as a federal judge in light of that
personal faith.
As a community of religious believers committed to full
engagement with modern American society, we are deeply
troubled by those who have implied that a person of faith
cannot serve in a high level government post that may raise
issues at odds with his or her personal beliefs. There is
little question in our minds that this view has been the
subtext for some of the criticism of Mr. Pryor. We urge you
and your colleagues to emphatically reject this aspersion and
send a clear message that such suggestions, whether explicit
or implied, are beyond the pale of our politics. In our view,
Mr. Pryor's record as Alabama's Attorney General demonstrates
his ability to faithfully enforce the law, even when it may
conflict with his personal beliefs.
The role of religion and of religious citizens in American
life was much discussed during the last presidential
campaign. To our nation's credit, it was discussed in a
serious and meaningful way, which revealed a national
consensus favoring a society where citizens of many faiths
are not only welcome in our society, but encouraged to bring
their faith into our nation's ``public square.'' We urge you
to ensure that the deliberations over William Pryor's
nomination do not undermine the great progress we have seen
on this issue so critical to America's civil society.
We pray your committee's deliberations will be fair and
serve the nation well.
There are a lot of people concerned about this around here. Let me make this point. I want to respond to the concerns of my dear friend, Senator Feinstein. She is one of my dearest friends in this body. I think the world of her.
She made comments about an ad that used the slogan, ``Catholics need not apply.'' I don't have a copy of it here on a poster.
She used that because she wants us to decry this ad.
Well, I am not happy with this ad.
But I can see why people have done this, because they believe that this--these debates are devolving to the point of attacking a person for his or her personal beliefs, in the case of Pryor, Kuhl, Holmes, others.
Let me respond to Senator Feinstein's concerns about the ad that used the slogan ``Catholics need not apply.'' In fact, it was the liberal groups, the liberal inside-the-beltway groups, that used the slogan ``Catholics need not apply'' to argue against Republicans for supporting the Charitable Choice legislation in 2001.
Let me put one of these ads up, along with the words of the Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Here is the paragraph down here:
Ashcroft's Charitable Choice provisions allow a government-
funded program to hang a sign that says ``Catholics need not
apply.''
I will not read the rest of it. We will put it into the Record.
I ask unanimous consent that the letter be printed in the Record.
Let's go to People for the American Way. It is estimated that People for the American Way have between $12 and $30 million given to them, mainly by the Hollywood crowd and big business people, to do what they do in this town, which is to distort Republican nominees' records. This is People for the American Way. I will not read it all:
Charitable Choice, a bad choice for government and
religion.
Here is the paragraph.
An Evangelical church running a government-funded welfare
program could state that ``Catholics need not apply,'' in a
help wanted ad.
I do not recall any Democratic Senators expressing outrage about that. I did not see one comment about the fact that the liberals have used this language against the Charitable Choice legislation.
Whether you agree with that or whether you agree with General Pryor, or not----
I am happy to yield without losing my right to the floor.
I have no doubt that we have unset precedents in this body.
No question about that.
I have no doubt, to answer the Senator's question, if we continue down this pathway we are going to devolve to where people with strongly held religious beliefs are not going to be able to serve in this country. That is what it comes down to. I have no doubt that if we continue to violate the Constitution by allowing filibusters against-- under our advise and consent mandate in the Constitution, we are going to wind up with a mess on our hands that we will not be able to repair. So we have to get out of this. I call on our colleagues on the other side to get real here.
I do not think we will go that far. At least while I am chairman of the committee we are not going to do that. I did ask him what his religion was, after all of these questions that were asked in a very extensive hearing where religion was put squarely in issue by the other side. I did ask him that because I wanted to establish that this had gone too far.
I don't intend to ever ask that question again. I don't think my colleagues will. The distinguished Senator from Vermont said he will never ask that question, and he criticized me for doing so. But I think it was highly justified under the circumstances, and I think we made a pretty good case tonight that it was justified, although I am sure some of my colleagues will take umbrage.
But let them take umbrage. People all over this country are starting to say there is litmus test arising. Certainly there are outside groups that are trying to smear our nominees--especially Attorney General Pryor, Judge Kuhl, and Mr. Holmes.
There are people all over this country who are coming to the conclusion that Bill Pryor is being treated that way. Personally, if you are going to apply abortion as a litmus test, and that is his deeply held personal belief, even though he has exhibited more than an effort to obey the laws no matter what they are, I can see why people arrived at that conclusion.
I see why Mr. Donohue feels that way. This is getting to be an avalanche. The new code words for some are that, well, I don't personally believe in abortion but I believe a woman ought to have a right to choose.
Give me a break. That is a nice excuse. But that certainly is not acceptable, it seems to me, to many religions, including the Catholic faith, as has been said by these letters.
It certainly would. We have reached a point on the Judiciary Committee where a person who has always had an honorable reputation such as General Pryor is immediately told by my Democratic colleagues that he cannot follow the law because of his deeply held beliefs. Come on. He has more than shown that he follows the law even though sometimes it is totally in conflict with his religious beliefs because he is a great lawyer. He realizes that if you do not follow the law, pretty soon we will not have any laws. The quickest way to get rid of the Constitution is to not abide by it. Even though there are decisions by the Supreme Court that I abhor, and that I think are bad decisions to start with, the fact is that when it is the law, I believe we ought to abide by it.
He has more than amply shown that he would, even under severe criticism by his supporters--by his own Governor who appointed him, by the Supreme Court Chief Justice who begged him to make certain arguments, he abides by the law. Yet his assertions and his word as a man of integrity and honor all his life are given short shrift.
Democrats are playing this phony ``gotcha politics'' game, in which they ``investigate'' unauthenticated--and many believe, stolen documents--and we object but participate only to keep our side informed. After weeks of their ``investigation,'' they didn't find one thing inconsistent with Pryor's testimony. They called almost everyone named in these documents. I don't know if they got all of them on the phone. But they didn't find one thing wrong. Pryor made himself available twice, so they could ask any question they wanted to ask, but twice, they didn't ask a single question. Then they come here and said they haven't had the full investigation. Give me a break.
It is getting to be where it is hard for people of devout beliefs to not be criticized if those beliefs contradict abortion rights.
Look. We have people on our side who feel very deeply about that. Some of them--very few--wanted to filibuster. We stopped it because we knew it would be terrible for this body to go through filibustering nominees to the Federal judiciary.
But now Democrats are filibustering nominees. When a person of the integrity of Bill Pryor is constantly called into question because of deeply held beliefs, I can see why people from all over the country are starting to ask what his deeply held beliefs are. They are religious beliefs because he is a traditional pro-life Catholic--and God forbid conservative--and that is, frankly, behind this in the eyes of many people.
I don't want to attribute that to my colleagues on the committee but I believe they are letting this happen. I call on them to help stop it.
The reason I bring up these two posters tonight is because these liberal groups use these slogans that ``Catholics need not apply'' to argue against Republicans for supporting Charitable Choice legislation. When that slogan was used against Republicans, I did not hear any outcry from my friends on the other side. I did not hear any outcry. Specifically, Americans United for Separation of Church and State argued against John Ashcroft's nomination for Attorney General. Their press release stated that Ashcroft's Charitable Choice provisions allow a government-funded program to hang a sign that says ``Catholics Need Not Apply.''
That is ridiculous. But that is what they did. I did not hear any screaming about that. I did not hear any of this righteous indignation from our colleagues over here about that. We didn't dignify it; at least I didn't.
People for the American Way, which I think has a very checkered reputation in this town--I am getting so I don't believe anything they do--criticized the Bush administration for supporting Charitable Choice legislation. They said:
Charitable Choice opens the door to government approved
discrimination. . . . An evangelical church running a
government-funded welfare program could state that
``Catholics need not apply.''
I am sure some will say maybe they will do that. Maybe they will. I don't know. But they are saying a lot of the best welfare programs in this country, a lot of the best programs in this country--from the taking care of people standpoint--are done by religious organizations, including the Catholic Church.
Where was the outrage back in 2001 when the liberals were using the slogan ``Catholics Need Not Apply'' against the Bush administration and John Ashcroft?
My friends on the other side of the aisle were silent. I did not hear one of them complain about that.
I met with some 50 people yesterday from all over the country who believe we are devolving into an antireligious body because of what is going on here.
Again, it is all coming down to abortion.
All we have asked is for Senators not to filibuster judges. We think it is a dangerous, unconstitutional thing to do. Judicial nominees of any President deserve an up-and-down vote, especially once they are brought to the floor. There are all kinds of ways of stopping them before they get to the floor, and colleagues on both sides of the aisle understand those ways.
But I can tell you this, we can match the decency of our approach any day of the week to what went on during the Reagan and Bush 1 administrations, and now what is going on in this administration--any day of the week--statistically, number-wise, fairness, from a dignity standpoint.
All we want are up-and-down votes for these nominees, especially once they are brought to the floor. What is really bothering our friends on the other side is, we do have a right to bring people to the floor because we have this one-person majority. Can you imagine how much good work we could do if we had a few more in the majority? It would not be nearly this screaming and shouting and this bitterness that sometimes does arise, coming primarily from outside.
I think the public has a right to know exactly where their Senators stand on these issues. If you do not like Bill Pryor, vote against him. If you think that his religious views are going to color his decisions on the bench, vote against him. If I thought that, I would vote against him.
The public needs to know, how are you going to vote on these issues? Some of our colleagues are afraid to take on these outside groups. We did. I did. I have been condemned by some of them, even to this day, for having done
so. And I put through a lot of Clinton judges. The all-time champion was Ronald Reagan: 382 judges in his 8 years. He had 6 years of a Republican Senate to help him, only 2 years with Democrat opposition, and he got 382. It was remarkable. Guess how many Clinton got, with only 2 years of his own party in control of the Senate? In 6 years, where I was chairman, 377--5 less than Reagan. Had it not been for some of the holds on the other side--one Senator was not getting his, so he stopped another from getting his--I think Bill Clinton would have been the all-time confirmation champion, with 6 years of a Republican Senate. We treated him fairly. Now, you can always find something to complain about on both sides, but he was treated fairly under the circumstances. And I know it, and I know he knows it.
These people deserve an up-and-down vote, at least once they come to the floor. Justice delayed is justice denied. There are many of these cases, among the litany of people the Democrats have indicated they are going to filibuster--it is not just two. Pryor looks like he is going to be filibustered. Kuhl looks like she is going to be filibustered. Holmes looks like he is going to be filibustered. We have talked about Pickering being filibustered. You can go down through some others as well--Boyle from North Carolina, et cetera.
Our courts cannot work if we don't have judges to run them. What is really bothering some of our colleagues on the other side is that in relation to the American Bar Association, their gold standard during all my 6 years as chairman of the Judiciary Committee during the Clinton years has suddenly not been a gold standard but a tin standard to them, because people like Miguel Estrada, with the unanimously well- qualified highest rating of the American Bar Association, are stopped. For what reason? They do not even have a good reason.
The first Hispanic ever nominated to the Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, and not even a valid reason--at least I have not heard one yet, and I have heard everything they have said.
Priscilla Owen, you can't find a better woman. Priscilla Owen became a top-flight partner in one of the major law firms, broke through the glass ceiling for women, has been a mentor for women, is unanimously well qualified, and a justice on the Texas Supreme Court. She has all kinds of Democrat support from Democrat co-justices right on through the State--the people who know her the best. And she is being filibustered.
Bill Pryor is as good a man as I have seen come before the committee; yes, a person with very deeply held views. He might be filibustered.
Judicial nominees' qualifications should matter most. And a person's judicial qualifications ought to be the sole criteria by which we judge them. You cannot find better people than the ones I have been mentioning. I don't understand it. I don't understand why the other side is doing this. But they are doing it. And I think they are hurting this process tremendously.
All I want--and all any reasonable person should want--and all the public wants--is to have an up-and-down vote. Let these people be voted upon. If they are defeated, I can live with that. But if they are not defeated, they should be able to serve without having their reputation smeared, which is what these outside groups are doing. I don't think outside groups of the left or the right should be doing that. And they are distorting this process like I have never seen it distorted before.
Now, Senator Feinstein was not here when I showed that the left used this slogan ``Catholics Need not apply.'' I don't think it is a good idea, whether these ``Catholics need not apply'' signs or ads come from the left or from the right. And I would prefer them to be stopped.
I don't like my colleague from Vermont thinking that I think he has even an ounce of religious bigotry. I do not. He needs to know that. But he can't just slide off and not recognize that this is where we are being taken by some of the attitudes and some of the approaches that are going on in the Senate Judiciary Committee--at least that is what the people outside think, religious people.
I have to tell you something, some of the greatest judges in this country are Catholics--and from every other religion. And some of the greatest ones have deeply held beliefs. But they are honorable, decent, honest people, just like Bill Pryor.
Now, look, what really has offended me and got me going here today-- and I knew we were not going to go any further on energy tonight because the Democrats brought this up. We have an hour scheduled for the debate early in the morning tomorrow for a cloture vote. They don't want this cloture vote. Why not? It takes 15 minutes. And they are trying to say that we are tossing energy over the hill. They brought it up. And I am not going to let them get away with it anymore.
I care a lot for my colleagues on the other side. There is not one I do not like. That is not the usual BS around here. I do like my colleagues, and they know it. I don't feel good pointing out to them that what they are doing is dangerous for this process, and that people all over this land are starting to get some wrong ideas--maybe right ideas. I think these church leaders are not too far off. In fact, they may very well be right. They took the time to let us know how they feel.
But to come out here tonight and start this mess, and make these points, and then say that we are not willing to get the Energy bill done--come on. We have been doing a slow-walk around here for weeks now on the Energy bill. My colleagues on the other side know that Senator Domenici has had some health problems and that it has been very difficult for him, but he is a gutsy, strong Senator, one of the greatest ones who has ever sat here. And he is never going to let you know that he has been hurting. But they know.
We can do this bill by the end of this week, and we can still have our votes on cloture, which need to be done because the Senate is capable of doing multiple things. If we were not, we would not have lasted for over 200 years. And we can do those trade bills, too, if we just have a modicum of cooperation from the other side. But, no, there is a slow-walk here. And some on our side--in fact, it is a growing number--are starting to believe that slow-walk is to try to make the Senate look bad. You can't make it look bad because we have had a lot of legislation go through this year. And we are going to keep plugging away until we get more that this country needs. But it sure is a chore every step of the way.
I don't want to hear these phony arguments that we can't have 15 minutes for a cloture vote, or even an hour debate beforehand. We can start at any time in the morning.
Most people do not even get moving around here until 10 o'clock. We can do that without interfering with the energy debate. Senator Domenici was willing to be here all night long, if he had to, to take amendments and move this along. I think we Republicans were ready to be here for as long as it took to support him and others on the Democrat side who believe we need an Energy bill.
But to come out here and make these points against Bill Pryor that are not only false but demeaning to this body is wrong.
I am going to yield the floor. I know my colleague would like to speak. I am tired of hearing these arguments how holy some on the other side are. But I tell you this, there are people all over this land who are starting to think this system is not fair to people of belief, to people who have deeply held beliefs. I want you to know I am one of them.
I yield the floor.