Mr. Chairman, the gentleman from Colorado has insisted that this is a back-door deal. I think that it is important to understand that this is not a back-door deal; it is a deal that was done at the suggestion of the National Association of…
Mr. Chairman, the gentleman from Colorado has insisted that this is a back-door deal. I think that it is important to understand that this is not a back-door deal; it is a deal that was done at the suggestion of the National Association of Counties under their direction and under their purview as a memorandum of understanding that could be used in other States and as a model for solving these problems. This is about solving problems.
In addition, the gentleman continues to suggest that there are areas that are worthy of wilderness designation when, in fact, wilderness is not a protection of land. A wilderness designation is a recreational protection. It is a place where people can go and be away from modernity, and that is a worthy value; but it does not go to the legal right that States and counties have to their roads, the roads that they have had for 100 or 150 years. That is the issue that we need to deal with today.
Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the gentleman yielding.
The gentleman is aware that there is an underlying memorandum of understanding between the Department of the Interior and the State of Utah in that it is not possible, given the context of that MOU for the issue of private property, to be relevant.
Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
Mr. Chairman, in fact, this memorandum of understanding was done at the suggestion and under the oversight and direction of the National Association of Counties, with the explicit point of seeing how it works in Utah so we could go to these other States. In other words, no one is getting out ahead of anyone else or going to solve or create problems in Oregon based upon an MOU in Utah.
Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
You realize we have 5 million acres in the BLM excess land fund. We would love to sell those acres and fund the land and water conservation deal.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to start out by thanking the chairman of the subcommittee, the gentleman from North Carolina (Mr. Taylor), for his work on this issue. It is a very important issue, obviously, an issue that has some intensity.
I thought about asking unanimous consent to lower the temperature on the floor here by 8 degrees. I think that would be very helpful, since it seems to be about 78, as opposed to 70.
This has been a very important issue to us in Utah in particular, and as a matter of policy we appreciate the gentleman from North Carolina's (Mr. Taylor) involvement in the issue of policy.
I would also like to thank the gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Gilchrest), who probably has done more reading on this issue than anybody else in this room and has drawn conclusions that he has presented, I think, very eloquently earlier.
I would like to thank the gentleman from Alaska (Mr. Young) for his thoughtful words on this issue.
I would also like to thank the proponent of this issue, the gentleman from Colorado (Mr. Udall), who is someone with whom you can disagree without being disagreeable. We disagree stridently on this issue, dramatically on this issue, but it is in an environment in which we can talk, and I appreciate that.
The gentleman from Colorado (Mr. Udall) talked about this as a back- room agreement. It is not a back-room agreement. The gentlewoman from Colorado (Ms. DeGette) talked about this as an archaic, arcane and arbitrary rule or law. That is what you call a law you do not like. But the fact is we have law in America.
I have been interested to follow the debate of several people on the Democratic side here. The gentleman from Colorado (Mr. Udall) talked about our institutional prerogatives in Congress. The gentleman from Utah (Mr. Matheson) said it is time for Congress to do its job. The gentleman from Washington (Mr. Dicks) talked about continuing to work to find the solution to this problem.
But, in fact, this is not a congressional problem. It is true we have oversight, we have responsibility for these kind of issues, but we have law in place already. And that law delegates certain authorities to the Department of the Interior. And in the context of that delegated law, the Department of Interior has entered into an agreement.
It is an open agreement. It is not a back-room agreement. It is an agreement that was precipitated by the National Association of Counties, of which every single Member of this body has counties that are part of that group. That is not a group that is hiding the ball or doing something in the back room. That is a group that wanted to create a process that we could start and evaluate as we used it to come to the point of understanding whether or not we could solve these problems in the context of law.
If that process got out of hand or something radically wrong happened, we could step in and resolve that process. Because, ultimately, that is our prerogative as Congress.
It is an emotional issue that is very intense to me.
Let me point out this is not a problem with Utah. We have a letter from what is called The Club of 20 which are 22 counties on the western slope in Colorado who have sent a letter to the gentleman from North Carolina (Mr. Taylor) supporting his amendments.
May I just suggest if you look at what the Taylor amendment does, it takes what I think is an egregious step in taking away the proper authority from the Department of the Interior and brings back into context what we should be doing, as a matter of oversight, what we should be doing to express ourselves to protect the interests that are of such great concern to Americans. And that is it allows the process that has been set up by the Department of the Interior and the State of Utah to go forward.
It does that in the context of protection. It protects national refuges, national wildlife refuges. It protects wilderness study areas. It protects wilderness areas. It protects national parks. It protects monuments.
We cannot protect private property. May I just suggest that all the discussion about private property misses the point? We should not be creating national policy in the context of nasty neighbors.
RS-2477 rights exist in the context of law and have to be resolved at the proper level and not here. So we can do nothing about the private property issue. And, in fact, the memorandum of understanding, the MOU, between the Department of the Interior and Utah does not allow for the disclaimer to be used in the context of any road over private property. It is only to be used in the context of the roads that you saw that my colleague from Utah (Mr. Bishop) showed with his picture.
Let me point out that Utah is different from some other parts of the country. I was the Associate Solicitor in the Interior Department for some period of time in charge of coal mining reclamation. I probably have been in more coal mines than everybody else in this group put together, and I have seen the devastation in the Northeast of the United States. We built our economy on the devastation of the coal mining lands in Kentucky and West Virginia and Virginia and Tennessee and other areas.
But you cannot find a coal mine in Utah without a map, and the reason you cannot find a coal mine in Utah is because we have been careful about how we have used our public lands.
I grew up in an area called Wayne County, to some degree. One of my favorite areas in Utah, they call it Wayne Wonderland. I once walked five miles down a ditch that our ancestors had dug to get some water to a lousy 200 acres of land, a beautiful 200 acres of land, and they did it with great sweat and pain and suffering because they loved the land and wanted to produce on it.
We have used the land in Utah, I think, well; and I think that our record
of the environment stands up to anyone's scrutiny.
I suggest to this body that this memorandum of understanding is appropriate, and it should not be interfered with by this amendment. I urge a vote of yes on the Taylor amendment perfecting the Udall amendment and a vote of no on the underlying amendment.