Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume. I stand here in just abject wonder at having 2 hours and 10 minutes to debate this bill over which there is very little controversy, a few dollars here and there; and I was going to…
Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
I stand here in just abject wonder at having 2 hours and 10 minutes to debate this bill over which there is very little controversy, a few dollars here and there; and I was going to ask the gentleman from Louisiana if he might accept a unanimous consent request that we cut the time in half, spend the first hour on this bill and spend the second hour debating whether or not Rumsfeld ordered the torture of prisoners in Iraq, and then we might have some more fun at least in the 2 hours we have got.
Does the gentleman agree?
Mr. Speaker, it is kind of sad that this bill was not worked out in committee because the differences, which I will describe shortly, are simple and there could have been a compromise, it appears to me, and certainly we have a substitute which will come up and we, I think, have to discuss both.
Let us start out by suggesting that I would like to agree with the distinguished gentleman from Louisiana that it is probably a good idea to not encourage people to spend foolishly, to buy two extra pair of eyeglasses or go out for an extra shot of Botox or something at the end of the year just to use up the money in their flexible spending account.
The problem, and where we would disagree, is that the gentleman's bill is not paid for, and this does push us further into debt; and our bill and the differences, and we have some, is paid for. If the gentleman wanted to say let us compromise right now and pay for half of it, we could get this done in 15 minutes. I am easy. But that is basically our difference. The Republican bill creates more of a deficit, and it does discourage people from spending foolishly at the end of the year and it costs, what, 8 billion bucks over 10.
Therein is the major difference. I would like to discuss one minor difference which is complex and which our substitute drops. The gentleman from Louisiana, the Republican bill, allows members of a flexible spending account to transfer money into a health savings account. The only problem with that is that, insofar as the regulations appear now, one cannot have a flexible spending account and a health savings account at the same time, so that to transfer the money from the flexible spending account into the health savings account, they have to drop their flexible spending account, and then the next year they would not have 500 bucks to transfer.
I mean, it is a way to encourage, or perhaps force, people into dropping a flexible spending account and move into a health savings account. I am not sure that was his intention, but that is the reality. And there is almost no one who would qualify to transfer money, the $500, say, from the flexible spending account into a health savings account. As a matter of fact, it is scored at 20 million bucks over 10 years; so if it is $20 at maybe 1 million people who would use it, and if our purpose is to encourage health savings accounts, I would suggest to the gentleman that that is a separate debate and perhaps not really pertinent to the question of whether we should allow people this carryover and repeal the use-it-or-lose-it provision. Had we had a chance to mark this up in committee and work it out in some detail, I think we could have worked out a system, perhaps brought two bills to the floor.
The bill, I know, and I hate to be critical, but I know it is introduced as a centerpiece of the week for the uninsured, and I am afraid that this bill does nothing for the uninsured. We cannot have a flexible spending account and not have access to insurance. So we really are not dealing with the uninsured here. People who have flexible spending accounts, as a matter of fact, probably have very generous and good health insurance coverage. So it is somewhat disingenuous, and that is the harshest thing I can think of, to suggest that this is going to have any effect or impact in Cover the Uninsured Week.
So if I could summarize just for a moment, there is a part of the bill which would help people and prevent them from frivolous spending from their flexible spending accounts. We concur in that, and our substitute includes that. Our major difference is, and we could have a vote, is it worth increasing the deficit by $8.5 billion. We have some simple ways to pay for that. For instance, not letting corporations reincorporate offshore and avoid Federal income tax on their corporate income, a theory that has some bipartisan support.
There are some egregious loopholes that were dreamed up mostly by the Enron Corporation, which we also closed. I do not think anybody would suggest that those loopholes ought to continue. So in a minimal way, we changed the Tax Code to make this, and it is a principle, we ought to pay for things that we are providing, and that is it. We would leave the health savings account portion out. We would allow people to transfer the $500 and carry it forward so they would not have a use-it- or-lose-it, and we would pay for it. Other than that I do not know what we could find to disagree about for the next 2 hours, but in my inimitable way I will be just as disagreeable as the gentleman from Louisiana would like me to be.
Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. Speaker, will the gentleman yield?
Mr. Speaker, if I were to stipulate to the gentleman from Louisiana that we keep the HSA portion, would the gentleman agree to pay for it or some of it here, and we will have a compromise right now?
Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman.
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to yield 6 minutes to the distinguished gentleman from California (Mr. Becerra).
Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to inquire of the gentleman from Louisiana, it is my understanding that you could use a flexible savings account to, for example, pay for abortion if your employer's health care plan did not provide that benefit. Is that not true?
I yield to the gentleman from Louisiana.
Mr. Speaker, reclaiming my time, there is nothing in this bill that would prohibit a woman from using the benefits of the flexible savings account for an abortion; is that correct?
Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the gentlewoman from Texas (Ms. Jackson-Lee).
(Ms. JACKSON-LEE of Texas asked and was given permission to revise and extend her remarks.)
Mr. Speaker, if the gentleman will yield, I will then reserve my time and precede his closing and try and warm up the audience for what I know will be eloquent remarks.
Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. Speaker, I yield 6 minutes to the gentleman from Washington (Mr. McDERMOTT), as we are blessed with his late arrival.
(Mr. McDERMOTT asked and was given permission to revise and extend his remarks.)
Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume. I thank the gentleman for his comments and I would close just briefly.
I believe that the Enron employee would not have insurance. He would have some money in that health savings account, but when Enron folded up, the insurance went along with Enron. He could go into the private market and try and buy something.
I would just like to repeat, if I may, that this really does nothing to cover the uninsured. So, if this is Cover the Uninsured Week, we are burning up a couple of valuable hours that we could be discussing how to cover the uninsured with this bill.
The principal disagreement that we had with the bill is that it is not paid for, and we will offer, subsequently to closing this debate, a substitute where we pay for it in very patriotic and simple ways. It is not a lot of money but it is a principle that we Democrats have long adhered to, and that is, that we ought to pay for the wonderful things that are available to us in this country and not put the burden on our children and grandchildren.
So, having said that, and without fear of contradiction that I probably have more children and grandchildren than the combined audience here, I can qualify, if the Speaker will allow me,
as an expert in that area. And maybe I am a little touchy about it, but will conclude our debate on this and I appreciate the gentleman from Louisiana. Next time I hope we can resolve these differences in our committee and come to the floor, as we did in the good old days, with a unified approach to Medicare and health insurance problems.
Mr. Speaker, I yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. Speaker, I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute.
I am.
Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Our Democratic substitute addresses a real issue of concern with respect to flexible spending accounts in the use-it-or-lose-it rule.
We agree with the author of this legislation that it is unwise to create an incentive for people to spend foolishly or frivolously for a benefit that they might lose, and we have the Washington Business Group and 50 major corporate members are clear on the issue. They want the changes and they want the money carried over into FSAs. The position is shared by their employees. There is some question, and nobody really has raised it previously, as to putting this money into health savings accounts, but because that is such a minor issue it could be overlooked.
The real question here is whether we should pay for this. And it will be expensive. It is $8 billion. That is money that could be used in many programs, education programs, environmental programs, health programs, and it is a principle to which we are dedicated, and that is that we would like to expand health care in this country, but we have never offered a plan that we
will not pay for. And I find it sometimes difficult when my opponents across the aisle will not even give us a plan that costs nothing.
My Republican friends are opposed to expanding COBRA benefits. They are very expensive for people, but some 40 million people have used them since we wrote that bill on a bipartisan basis to expand COBRA benefits until a person gets another job or until they mature into Medicare. Costs zip, nothing, nada. It costs the employer nothing. Why do we object to expanding COBRA benefits? Just because it is a government plan and obviously people on the other side of the aisle do not like the government helping people unless they are very rich, of course.
So here we have just another example of not a bad piece of legislation. It could use some improvement, but it is a freebie and will predominantly benefit people in good jobs, with good health insurance and expand another tax loophole.
It is a modest one, but it is a principle. Left unchecked, we would soon have almost no tax revenue in this country at all, a position which the Club For Growth would applaud, but I am sure that those of us who are on the Federal salary or those people who are defending us now in Iraq would object to.
So I hope that we could reverse this disastrous rush to the bottom of debt and begin to be responsible in how we legislate by paying for these provisions. We will hear more later from my colleagues on the really very useful ways that it will help our economy if, in fact, we did pay for this bill under the provisions of our Democratic substitute.
Mr. Speaker, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume, before I recognize the distinguished gentleman from Massachusetts, to remind my good friend from Louisiana that the tax provisions in our substitute were recommended by the bipartisan, bicameral Joint Committee on Taxation; and these provisions have already passed on a bipartisan basis in the other body.
Mr. Speaker, I yield 4 minutes to the distinguished gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr. Neal) 2 minutes for economic logic and 2 minutes for righteous indignation, for a total of 4 minutes.
(Mr. NEAL of Massachusetts asked and was given permission to revise and extend his remarks.)
Mr. Speaker, I yield 5 minutes to the gentleman from Texas (Mr. Doggett).
Mr. Speaker, I yield 3 minutes to the gentleman from Michigan (Mr. Levin).
(Mr. LEVIN asked and was given permission to revise and extend his remarks.)
Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to suggest to the gentleman from Wisconsin (Mr. Ryan) that we do not on this side have any objection to the rollover. We think it is a good idea, and all we would suggest is that we have to pay for it. That is the only difference.
I yield to the gentleman from Wisconsin.
Actually, I am opposed to it in general, but I offer to the gentleman from Louisiana (Mr. McCrery) that we would accept that if he would pay for half of the bill. That is compromise.
It only denies the HSA, which they think is going to be a small number. There is still time to negotiate.
Mr. Speaker, I yield 4 minutes to the gentlewoman from Connecticut (Ms. DeLauro).
Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Mr. Speaker, I would like to close the debate on our side for our substitute. My belief is these two tax provisions, modest as they are, regardless of the underlying bill, are good tax policy and ought to be considered if for no other reason than that they correct some serious inequities in our Tax Code which have been described by previous speakers.
We are very close to a compromise with our friends on the other side of the aisle. Our substitute would eliminate the health savings account issue. But as I said, it is possible to reinstate that in conference, and if the gentleman would like to support our substitute, we could do the patriotic thing, we could provide good tax policy, we could pay for a very good idea, and we could walk out, arm in arm, saying we have helped a few people, we have paid for it, and we have brought patriotism and corporate responsibility to some of our recalcitrant corporate friends who are not doing their share.
I would urge that this substitute does no harm to the underlying philosophy of the bill of the gentleman from Louisiana (Mr. McCrery). It does add to the coffers of our Nation when it is so desperately needed. This money is contributed by those corporations whose actions are I believe indefensible, and particularly at this time of grave national emergency.
I would not want to suggest that anybody who votes against our substitute is unpatriotic, but I would suggest that it certainly is helpful for our troops and the American economy to support the Rangel substitute.
Mr. Speaker, I yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. Speaker, I demand a recorded vote.
Mr. Speaker, I offer a motion to recommit.
I am, Mr. Speaker, in its present form.
Mr. Speaker, during the past several hours we have had a good debate on this bill, and I think we have agreed to some of the basic principles that the flexible savings accounts should allow a reduction of the use-it-or-lose-it rule. We had attempted to offer a compromise to get our Republican colleagues to just pay for half of the bill, which was turned down. And the bill has, indeed, many supporters.
But what we have seen during the course of this current administration is indirectly a complete raid on the Social Security and Medicare Trust
Funds. Basically, the Republicans have spent all of the surplus in Social Security and Medicare, and that, in my opinion, is indefensible. Whether we agree about flexible savings accounts or medical savings accounts is not the issue. This bill directly, specifically, transfers out of the trust funds $3.4 billion. The Republicans are raiding the Social Security and Medicare Trust Funds.
Now, that may not sound like a lot to my colleagues across the aisle, but to the people who depend on Social Security and Medicare, the idea that they are stealing money out of the Medicare and Social Security Trust Funds blatantly, I think they will find offensive.
This reduction in receipts should not be permitted to occur. It will not harm this bill. The bill will go forward exactly as the distinguished gentleman from Louisiana has outlined it and has prevailed. The only difference is our motion to recommit asks us all to stand up and take the pledge to protect Social Security and Medicare and its trust funds for all of those who depend on their benefits in this country.
This bill takes care of well-employed, well-insured individuals. This does not help any uninsured people at all. It gives an additional benefit to people with first-class medical insurance. Why then should we spoil an otherwise decent bill by taking the first step to destroy Medicare and Social Security for people who are unable to get health insurance? That is wrong.
We have all committed to protect Social Security and Medicare. You cannot oppose this motion to recommit and say you are protecting it. You are stealing almost $3.5 billion over the next 10 years out of these trust funds.
To support our motion to recommit would merely say find it someplace else; take it out of general revenues, take it out of trade, take it out of anything, but do not take it out of the hard-earned benefits that our senior citizens are entitled to. This could be the first step toward destroying the financial viability of Medicare and Social Security.
If you vote for our motion to recommit, you are standing up and suggesting that you will protect the trust funds that underlie Social Security and Medicare. If you vote against it, you are saying, ``We don't care. Take the seniors' money. What the heck. We can spend it. We have spent everybody else's money. We have spent our grandkids' money.''
I ask you, out of compassion, those of us who are seniors might not be able to get a job anyplace else if I am not reelected. My Social Security, please do not steal it. Do not make my little children go out and get an extra paper route to take care of me in my dotage. We need this. Our parents need it. We must protect our children.
So, to repeat, the bill will go through exactly as the Republicans have crafted it; but if you vote for our motion to recommit, you get the added benefit of saying to every senior in your district, I stood up and protected your Social Security and Medicare benefits by protecting the trust funds to which this money would go.
Mr. Speaker, I urge support for the motion to recommit.
Mr. Speaker, I demand a recorded vote.