Mr. Chairman, I rise in opposition. Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully disagree with the amendment of the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Scott), and would ask a ``no'' vote on his proposed…
Mr. Chairman, I rise in opposition.
Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Mr. Chairman, I respectfully disagree with the amendment of the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Scott), and would ask a ``no'' vote on his proposed amendment.
In essence, this is a battle about two competing theories with respect to gun manufacturers and gun sellers in America. There is one theory that presumes that gun manufacturers and gun sellers are inherently guilty of something, somewhere, almost all of the time. The other theory is that, consistent with the second amendment, if we really believe that the second amendment protects the right to bear and own arms, that we must inherently protect the right of people to manufacture and distribute those arms.
What the gentleman's amendment does, as I read it, is basically several things that are very, very important, including allowing civil courts to find somebody guilty of criminal offenses without all of the inherent protections that we give to people who are accused of crimes.
It actually flies in the face of a subsequent amendment filed by the gentlewoman from California (Ms. Linda T. Sanchez), who makes the keystone of her amendment actually that one be convicted and found guilty of a crime before they are responsible in a civil action.
What this amendment of the gentleman from Virginia (Mr. Scott) does is to remove the requirement that you are convicted of any criminal act before you are held guilty in civil responsibility. It would allow lawsuits against firearms manufacturers, dealers, or importers if the action is against a transferor who knowingly transfers a firearm, knowing that such firearms will be used to commit a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime.
The bill currently allows for suits against people if the transferor is actually convicted of a crime. What this amendment does is to undermine the ability of somebody to defend themselves with all the inherent criminal protections that they ought to have before they are essentially found to have committed a crime.
Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. Chairman, I yield myself 3 minutes.
Mr. Chairman, the gentleman is a very capable reader. I have discovered that in committee, and enjoy working with him.
However, I can read as well. What the bill does is say, before you are treated as a criminal, you need to be tried as a criminal in a criminal court, and you need to be convicted as a criminal. That is the American way.
What the amendment says is that you can be treated as a criminal even though you have never been tried as a criminal, and even though you have never been in a criminal court and certainly never been convicted.
Members will recall that the Bill of Rights, aside from protecting the right to bear firearms, also protects certain rights before one is convicted of a crime. It is the great American criminal jurisprudence.
Among other things, before you are a criminal, you have the right to a trial, you have the right to face your accusers, you have a right to call witnesses, you have a right to an attorney, you have a right to due process, and you have a right to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
What the gentleman's amendment does is to essentially eviscerate all of the protections we give people in America who are accused of a crime and make them criminals even though they have never had a day to protect themselves in a criminal court.
Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. Chairman, I yield myself 2 minutes.
Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that there are thousands of civil laws both at the Federal level and the State level, and we will try to get some research on which ones actually require a criminal predicate. But what I would suggest to the gentleman is that the part of the bill that he references regarding statutes that have been violated could be either a civil or criminal statute. So it does not require a civil court to find an individual defendant guilty of a crime. It actually permits a case against a gun manufacturer who violates a State law or Federal law in a civil matter. And I think this is very different because what the gentleman's amendment does is to specify a Federal criminal offense and to suggest civil courts can find you guilty even though you have never had your day in court, never been in criminal court, and certainly never been convicted in criminal court.
Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. Chairman, I yield myself such time as I may consume.
Mr. Chairman, actually I was debating the gentleman's amendment, and we have got staff taking a look at the specific provisions you have referred to. What I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, is ultimately this amendment is an attempt to eviscerate the second amendment in a way that the Constitution would not permit, in a way the courts fortunately have not permitted, and in a way that elected representatives and legislatures around the country and in this Congress would not permit.
What it basically does is to try to, through all sorts of litigation against gun manufacturers and gun sellers, make weapons that are protected under the second amendment unavailable. So what it does is to say that the second amendment to the United States Constitution, while it may protect your theoretical right to own and bear a weapon, actually is meaningless because we are not going to allow anybody either to manufacture or to sell those weapons.
And I would suggest that the adversaries of this bill and the people that are trying to weaken or undermine or eviscerate the bill refer back to Oliver Wendell Holmes's great statement in 1894 where he explained why you hold certain people responsible. He said:
Why is not a man who sells firearms answerable for assaults
committed with pistols bought of him since he must be taken
to know the probability that sooner or later someone will buy
a pistol of him for some unlawful end? The principle seem
pretty well established, in this country at least, that
everyone has the right to rely upon his fellow man acting
lawfully.
What the opponents of this bill want to do is to presume that everybody who manufactures or sells a weapon is guilty of something, ought to be put out of business through bankruptcy or some other means.
Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time to close.
Mr. Chairman, how much time remains?
Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. Chairman, I reserve the balance of my time.
Mr. Chairman, I yield myself the balance of my time.
Mr. Chairman, I want to apologize to my colleague because they asked the gentleman from Colorado to respond, and while Colorado is a great sunshine State, I actually represent the Sunshine State of Florida.
I yield to the gentleman from Virginia.
Reclaiming my time, there is no offense taken. Colorado is a beautiful State, but please come visit the Sunshine State when you get a chance.
I will give you this answer, and that is, while it will take me some time to research the tens of thousands of Federal and State civil actions to see which ones are predicated on a criminal conviction, I am also not aware of any situation where a civil court without the protections of the Bill of Rights can find one guilty of a Federal criminal offense that carries a 10-year punishment. And I think that is the crux of what this amendment gets to.
Because, as you know, the Supreme Court has stated, quoting James Madison in the case of The New York Times v. Sullivan: ``Some degree of abuse is inseparable from the proper use of everything.''
That includes hammers, ice picks, steak knives, lawn mowers, other things that have been used as weapons. What the opponents of the bill suggest is that every manufacturer and every seller must be guilty of something simply because they are selling a product that is not only a legal product, but it is particularly and especially protected by the second amendment to the United States Constitution.
A violation of section 18 of the U.S. Code, section 927(h) is exactly what the amendment that the gentleman gets to. A conviction under that statute carriers up to a 10-year imprisonment and a fine potentially.
What the gentleman wants to do is to basically say that somebody can be found guilty of that Federal criminal statute in a civil court, basically declaring somebody a criminal even though they have never been in a criminal court. For example, they would be called a criminal as actually the gentlewoman just did and she said we are protecting criminals if we do not adopt this wonderful amendment.
Ultimately, what we are doing here is to say to an accused person they will be found guilty in a civil court of a crime even though they never had the rights afforded them by the Bill of Rights, including the right to an attorney, the right to face your accuser, the right to call witnesses, the right to due process, and the right to be proven guilty of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt.
Please protect innocent parties, and please protect the second amendment and oppose the amendment.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my time.